Fun With An Extended Arm ...

BillyMac

Did offensive player commit a player control foul on move to the basket? Low Post player extends arm to help maneuver around defender. Is this incidental contact or a player control foul?

https://storage.googleapis.com/refquest-pro-dev-processed-videos/vUiWbAnPyBpIUDY2VYp9/yAQCIYgrVSnPFlLiNIwN/yAQCIYgrVSnPFlLiNIwN.mp4?GoogleAccessId=firebase-adminsdk-0yzpe%40refquest-pro-dev.iam.gserviceaccount.com&Expires=16447017600&Signature=Q6kmJPE5rCDNwzXMtRWGWb%2FLQNOiVs0b1hD4Qt%2BVMPt65rC8b4wjoLrSu7orezgA2aEDfCK7gFuqaQF7GrtDykqUf44hrSGbHflpQoHK%2FNGB92SpzMldgm7jGjaNBXLzP7%2Bu3wlguGs2z2e4fH9agYLtGAgfzi0cdxvuTeTFGnlBu%2FMjzp0kAVgvGf%2FwzOPgmvmxkrDAfxs4g4L9j754N%2BBU5fu2Ag0fpti6JZzl36SrjhnFW%2Bk8oFNrs1HpJFm%2BDjH9afJ0vZjcBluUHycl8epoHfag8NFCCEegot7MhF5pOHs48KArVTe7GPHH9%2F1DC15lAQkTSqiQRLEEXlMZRw%3D%3D

Two choices: This is a player control foul. This is incidental contact.

My comment: This is incidental contact. No advantage gained. Defender went where he wanted to go.

Thoughts?

BillyMac

Sidebar: How far back does a cheerleader, photographer (standing in this video), police officer, security guard, school administrator, parent, kid with a sweat mop, or fan have to be to comply with this safety rule:

1-20: Non-playing personnel shall stand outside the free throw lane lines extended toward the sidelines throughout the game.

(Note that the drums are in a legal position.)

MechanicGuy

From this angle, it's hard hard to see how much contact is made/restriction/advantage gained. But doesn't look like a PC foul.

LeRoy

Agreed!!!!

JRutledge

I got nothing. Looks very tame if anything and we do not see the other side of the play as the official in this game.

Peace

Camron Rust

The fact that you can see his arm unnaturally wrapped around the defender makes his actions suspect. I don't think we have the angle to see for sure how much leverage he gained by it but I see this called a PCF more times than not at the NCAA level as it often gives the offensive player an advantage...and if it were not an advantage, why would he do it?

Raymond

If that defender is aggressively attempting to contest to his left, then I can see this being a PCF.

As Camron noted, there is a reason A1 is using this tactic.

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bob jenkins

Are we supposed to answer what we would call from the camera angle presented, or what we think IAABO will say?

The extended arm gets our "antennas up", but there's no way to tell whther white held back blue -- there's no obvious "wrap around' and B certainly isn't being aggressive on defense.

BillyMac

bob jenkins wrote
Are we supposed to answer what we would call from the camera angle presented, or what we think IAABO will say?

Most Forum members don't really care what IAABO says, especially in regard to subjective judgement calls.

There are no prizes if one's answer is the same as IAABO's.

bob jenkins wrote
The extended arm gets our "antennas up", but there's no way to tell whether white held back blue ... and B certainly isn't being aggressive on defense.

Got my antennae up also. Agree on the relatively passive defense. Black #11 is playing like he's got four fouls.

BillyMac

Disclaimer: For IAABO eyes only. Below is not a NFHS interpretation, it's only an IAABO International interpretation which obviously doesn't mean a hill of beans to most members of this Forum.

IAABO International Play Commentary: Correct Answer: This is a player control foul.

The offensive player in the low post receives a pass and starts a dribble toward the basket. As he maneuvers around his opponent, he extends his left arm horizontally before attempting the try. Why do you think he extended his left arm around the defender? It is not legal to extend the arms fully or partially in a position other than vertical so that the freedom of movement of an opponent is hindered when contact with the arms occurs. The extension of the elbows when the hands are on the hips or when the hands are held near the chest or when the arms are held more or less horizontally are examples of the illegal positions used. (4-24-6)

In this play, the offensive player extends his left arm horizontally. 66% of respondents see this contact as inhibiting the defensive player's freedom of movement and would charge a player control foul.

Here is the breakdown of the IAABO members that commented on the video: This is a player control foul 66%. This is incidental contact 34% (including me).

JRutledge

Well without the other angle, I disagree. Nothing even shows he even hooked him in any way. He stuck his arm out, but sticking your arm out does not mean you hooked or used it in any way.

Peace

BillyMac

JRutledge wrote
He stuck his arm out, but sticking your arm out does not mean you hooked or used it in any way.

I see your point.

If a ball handler simply sticks his arm out without making any contact, that's nothing.

However if the ball handler sticks his arm out, and makes contact, then it becomes a subjective judgement call and one has to consider advantage and disadvantage (I actually viewed this as incidental contact, as did 34% of my IAABO colleagues).

If the extended arm prevents the defender from going somewhere he wants to go, it's a player control foul.

What made this play so difficult was that the defender was so passive.

bob jenkins wrote
... B certainly isn't being aggressive on defense.

BillyMac wrote
Agree on the relatively passive defense. Black #11 is playing like he's got four fouls.

JRutledge

That is why I said you need another angle. And the official is standing right there to see this and passes. So for them to come out and suggest that it is definitive does that official and even other officials a disservice if we do not know how that arm was making contact. If that is the case, why didn't they say something about the defender? And that easier to see than what the ball handler is doing.

Peace

Mike Goodwin

BillyMac wrote
If the extended arm prevents the defender from going somewhere he wants to go, it's a player control foul.

What made this play so difficult was that the defender was so passive.

I agree, BillyMac; it seemed the defender moved more behind the ball handler than trying to get through the extended arm.

I am also part of the 34% who considered this as incidental contact.