pregame dunk

bbman

During pregame warmups, a player attempts to dunk a layup, but the dunk does not go in. Is this still cause for 't'?
Thanks in advance

ilyazhito

bbman wrote
During pregame warmups, a player attempts to dunk a layup, but the dunk does not go in. Is this still cause for 't'?
Thanks in advance

By rule it is. The rule states "A player shall not dunk or stuff, or attempt to dunk or stuff a dead ball."

Kansas Ref

ilyazhito wrote
By rule it is. The rule states "A player shall not dunk or stuff, or attempt to dunk or stuff a dead ball.

*Good point ilyaz; however, it takes temerity to make that type of call. I was on a crew this season when that happened and we were all at mid court pregame, and I looked at the R to take leadership and make the call, but she did nothing but shrug.

BillyMac

Kansas Ref wrote
I was on a crew this season when that happened and we were all at mid court pregame, and I looked at the R to take leadership and make the call, but she did nothing but shrug.

If it's close (questionable drop in, or dunk) I may warn, but if it's unequivocally positively 100% a dunk, or dunk attempt, I will charge the technical foul, and I'm not waiting to get permission from the referee.

Question: Whistle, or no whistle?

I say no whistle, just a walk over and have a chat with the offending player, then walk over and chat with the offending head coach (letting him know that he has to find a comfortable chair), stop by the table for a chat, then chat with the opposing head coach.

Nevadaref

BillyMac wrote
If it's close (questionable drop in, or dunk) I may warn, but if it's unequivocally positively 100% a dunk, or dunk attempt, I will charge the technical foul, and I'm not waiting to get permission from the referee.

Question: Whistle, or no whistle?

I say no whistle, just a walk over and have a chat with the offending player, then walk over and chat with the offending head coach (letting him know that he has to find a comfortable chair), stop by the table for a chat, then chat with the opposing head coach.

There is a case play which gives the proper procedure for this. It states not to sound the whistle.

BillyMac

Nevadaref wrote
There is a case play which gives the proper procedure for this. It states not to sound the whistle.

10.5.1 SITUATION E: Fifteen minutes before the game is scheduled to start, team member A1 dunks. Two minutes later A2 dunks. RULING: A1 and A2 are both charged with a technical foul. In addition, the head coach is charged indirectly with a technical foul for each act. The two fouls are team fouls for purpose of reaching the bonus. When dunking occurs during the pregame practice period the official notifies the team member and the head coach, but does not sound the whistle. If the game is played in a state which utilizes the optional coaching box, the coach should be informed that he/she has lost the privilege of using the coaching box for the entire game. (10-4-1i)

crosscountry55

Just happened to me this afternoon. Short athletic kid attempts to dunk, gets above the rim, makes a fool of hi....I mean, misses.

The crew was late coming out due to COVID timelines that shorten our pregame floor time. So I cut some slack because our jurisdiction may not have been fully observed yet. But mostly because I just 100% knew that the grizzled veteran R on our crew was not interested in the specter of assessing a pre-game dunking T.

I did go talk to the player, though.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Kansas Ref

crosscountry55 wrote
Just happened to me this afternoon. Short athletic kid attempts to dunk, gets above the rim, makes a fool of hi....I mean, misses.

The crew was late coming out due to COVID timelines that shorten our pregame floor time. So I cut some slack because our jurisdiction may not have been fully observed yet. But mostly because I just 100% knew that the grizzled veteran R on our crew was not interested in the specter of assessing a pre-game dunking T.

I did go talk to the player, though.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

*As I had observed before,Mr. CC55, it takes temerity to make that kind of call.
Lol @ "spectre of a pregame tech.."

BillyMac

crosscountry55 wrote
... our jurisdiction may not have been fully observed yet.

If you're not 100% sure it's a dunk, or a dunk attempt, and if you're not 100% sure that it was under your jurisdiction, then it's probably not T-worthy.

When in Rome ...

crosscountry55 wrote
I did go talk to the player ...

Good. Better than ...

(Young'uns can check out Sergeant Schultz/Hogan's Heroes on the Google.)

Altor

BillyMac wrote
10.5.1 SITUATION E: Fifteen minutes before the game is scheduled to start, team member A1 dunks. Two minutes later A2 dunks. RULING: A1 and A2 are both charged with a technical foul. In addition, the head coach is charged indirectly with a technical foul for each act. The two fouls are team fouls for purpose of reaching the bonus. When dunking occurs during the pregame practice period the official notifies the team member and the head coach, but does not sound the whistle. If the game is played in a state which utilizes the optional coaching box, the coach should be informed that he/she has lost the privilege of using the coaching box for the entire game. (10-4-1i)

This is a bad part of a case play. If the official had sounded his whistle after the first one, A2 likely doesn't attempt a second.

BillyMac

Altor wrote
This is a bad part of a case play. If the official had sounded his whistle after the first one, A2 likely doesn't attempt a second.

Interesting point. I always thought that "but does not sound the whistle" was more of a mechanics situation rather than a rules situation and often wondered about its purpose in the casebook.

Do they still sound pregame, "Warning. We're here. Stop dunking", whistles in Texas?

LRZ

"This is a bad part of a case play."

The case plays says to tell the offender and the head coach, but it doesn't prevent the official from also telling the other players not to dunk: "Son, that's a T. Listen up, everybody, don't dunk!"

Preventive officiating (from that point on), problem solved.

BillyMac

LRZ wrote
The case plays says to tell the offender and the head coach, but it doesn't prevent the official from also telling the other players not to dunk: "Son, that's a T. Listen up, everybody, don't dunk!" Preventive officiating (from that point on), problem solved.

I'm not a big fan of a "Hey everybody. Look at me." pregame whistle, but it would definitely let everybody in the gym, players on both teams, coaches, fans, police officer in the corner, priest on the bench, hot single Mom selling hot dogs in the concession stand, know that there will be no ignoring of pregame dunking that night.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWoWYPXXwvE

LRZ

Stop it, BillyMac. You can accomplish this without becoming the center of attention. You've never stepped towards players on the layup line and said to them all, "tuck your shirts in" or something like that? And it need not be shouted, it can be done in a conversational tone.

I wish you'd stop channeling Mark Padgett; it's rarely amusing.

BillyMac

LRZ wrote
You can accomplish this without becoming the center of attention.

I was referring to sounding a whistle. A whistle seven minutes before the game begins would most certainly elicit attention.

LRZ wrote
You've never stepped towards players on the layup line and said to them all, "tuck your shirts in" or something like that?

"Tuck your shirts in"? Layup line? Never. I've got bigger fish to fry.

Earrings, undershirts, headbands, wrist bands, sleeves, earphones, long fingernails, making me decide if it's a dunk or not? Yes. Absolutely.

LRZ wrote
And it need not be shouted, it can be done in a conversational tone.

It certainly can, and I do it (see above), but a whistle would let everybody on both teams know that there will be no ignoring of pregame dunking that night, maybe preventing a second illegal pregame dunk down the other end of the court (extrapolating Altor's post).

However, I'll just continue follow 10.5.1 SITUATION E.

BillyMac

LRZ wrote
"Son, that's a T. Listen up, everybody, don't dunk!".

LRZ wrote
... in a conversational tone.

Are the players down the other end of the court going to be warned with this statement in a conversational tone over the music blaring throughout the gym?

Again, I'm not a big fan of the pregame dunking whistle, nor am I to willing to ignore 10.5.1 SITUATION E and be the first one on my block to do it, but, like Altor, I see some value in it, and I wouldn't take my whistle and go home if the interpretation was changed.

LRZ

What the hell are you talking about?

Jeez, I should have known better than to interject into one of your conversations with yourself. Either you have no common sense, you enjoy splitting hairs, or you are a troll. When you wondered why traffic here seems to have tapered off, look in the mirror.

BillyMac

LRZ wrote
I should have known better than to interject into one of your conversations with yourself.

While I have been known to reply to my own posts after further reflection, this is not the case here. All of my posts in this thread, even a single back-to-back, have been replies to other members posts.

Bottom line. I'm not a big fan of the pregame dunking whistle, nor is the NFHS, but I see some value (as does Altor) in it because it may prevent a subsequent "violation". While I agree with LRZ that warning (before or after charging a technical foul) players in a layup line in a conversational tone is a good preventative measure (for many issues, not just pregame dunking), it only works for those within earshot (in a gym with blasting music). A whistle (again, I'm not a fan) sounded will be a preventative measure for everybody in the gym, not only those that are within conversational tone earshot ("Hey. Look down there. He got T-ed up for dunking. We should be more careful".)

I'm not looking to T-up players for pregame dunking, I will try to prevent pregame dunking from happening, but if I have to T-up players, I will.

Maybe Texans have the right idea?

Altor

LRZ wrote
What the hell are you talking about?

It's my fault. This is one of those times where I simply disagree with a rule or case (or in this case, a single sentence fragment within a case). I pointed out my disagreement.

Do what you need to do and what you feel is best after reading the appropriate materials from the NFHS and your assignors.

BillyMac

Altor wrote
It's my fault.

No need to fall on your sword. It was a good point that had some value regarding preventative officiating.

Altor wrote
Do what you need to do and what you feel is best after reading the appropriate materials from the NFHS and your assignors.

Ain't that the gospel truth.