rule question

BillyMac

Raymond wrote
To me your play is no different in theory and application than a player tossing the ball up in the air (not a try/not a fumble) and taking steps with both feet and catching the ball in a new spot.

Nice example.

This involves a fumble (muff):

4.44 SITUATION A: A1 attempts to catch the ball while running rapidly. A1 muffs the ball, but succeeds in securing it before it strikes the floor. A1 then begins a dribble, taking several steps between the time the ball was first touched until it was caught. RULING: There has been no violation provided A1, after catching the ball, released the ball to start the dribble before the pivot foot was lifted from the floor. (4-15)

This doesn't involve a fumble:

4.44.3 SITUATION C: A1 throws the ball over the head of B1 and then takes several steps before catching it. RULING: Traveling violation since the ball did not touch the floor, the tossing and subsequent catch is illegal. (9-4)

Nevadaref

Raymond wrote
Since not every possible situation is covered in the rule and case books, I'm applying the spirit of the rule which is illustrated in Billy's case play 4.45.5 Sit B. In your play the player lifted and re-planted his pivot foot while still in possession of the ball. To me your play is no different in theory and application than a player tossing the ball up in the air (not a try/not a fumble) and taking steps with both feet and catching the ball in a new spot.

Which is an illegal dribble.

Scrapper1

stewcall wrote
Team A in the back court rolls the ball in bounds. Player A2 bats the ball forward 4-5 times--- Clock starts at the first bat ball. The question for me is are the bat balls legal or illegal?

The forum consensus seems to be that the bats are legal and do not constitute dribbles. I agree with that conclusion.

So now. . . when does the 10-second backcourt count start?

BillyMac

stewcall wrote
Team A in the back court rolls the ball in bounds. Player A2 bats the ball forward 4-5 times

Scrapper1 wrote
The forum consensus seems to be that the bats are legal and do not constitute dribbles. I agree with that conclusion. So now. . . when does the 10-second backcourt count start?

Start the ten second count when the offense controls (not just touches) the ball (holding or dribbling).

billyu2

bucky wrote
I may have to create a new thread or just let this go. Too many are interpreting my case incorrectly. Some are suggesting the ball is released and others are referring to cases that do not apply.

Case: A1 dribbles and then holds the ball, establishing his right foot as the pivot foot. A1 then places the ball on the floor with his right hand never losing contact with the ball. A1 then pushes/scoots/moves/displaces the ball in a controlled fashion, along the floor for ten feet, taking several full steps, and then picks up the ball. In this process, A1 was not dribbling. This would be legal based on this thread and everyone's opinion about the rules. This would also be a case whereby a pivot foot could be moved from one spot on the floor to another and there is no traveling violation.

Now, once A1 picks up the ball, could A1 pivot on his left foot? Ruling?

Bucky, people are not necessarily interpreting the situation incorrectly. Your description doesn't make sense. Even though A1 doesn't lose contact with the ball, once A1 starts pushing/scooting/moving/displacing the ball in a controlled fashion, he is either still holding the ball or he isn't. It can't be both. If he is still holding the ball while taking steps, it is a travel. Since you said he eventually picked up the ball, then the ball had to have been "released" even though he never lost contact. Again, it can't be both. If the ball is not being held, then it has been released. Releasing (by pushing) the ball to the floor (which A1 did) fits the definition of a dribble. Since A1 dribbled prior, IMO A1 has double dribbled.

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