NFHS: LGP or not? PC or block?

bucky

1) Turnover by Team B near division line. A1 gathers the ball and heads upcourt. Immediately after A1 gets control, B1, 10 feet away and in front of A1, is facing A1. B1, turns away from A1 and sprints to get back on defense. A1 is slow while B1 is fast. B1, facing away from A1 the entire time he was sprinting back, gets to the low defensive block, stops, and is still facing away from A1, with his back to A1. A1 continues his fast-break and plows into the back of B1. Ruling?

2) Same play except B1 never faced A1. Ruling?

Side note: When we discuss Legal Guarding Position, does distance matter? For example, A1 is guarding B1. A1 is 30 feet away from B1 and facing B1. Is A1 considered to be in legal guarding position?

BillyMac

4-23: Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an
offensive opponent. There is no minimum distance required between the
guard and opponent, but the maximum is 6 feet when closely guarded.
Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player
gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent. A player who
extends an arm, shoulder, hip or leg into the path of an opponent is not
considered to have a legal position if contact occurs.
ART. 2 To obtain an initial legal guarding position:
a. The guard must have both feet touching the playing court.
b. The front of the guard’s torso must be facing the opponent.
ART. 3 After the initial legal guarding position is obtained:
a. The guard may have one or both feet on the playing court or be
airborne, provided he/she has inbound status.
b. The guard is not required to continue facing the opponent.
c. The guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, -
provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs.
d. The guard may raise hands or jump within his/her own vertical
plane.
e. The guard may turn or duck to absorb the shock of imminent
contact.
ART. 4 Guarding an opponent with the ball or a stationary opponent -
without the ball:
a. No time or distance is required to obtain an initial legal position.
b. If the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard must have
obtained legal position before the opponent left the floor.
ART. 5 Guarding a moving opponent without the ball:
a. Time and distance are factors required to obtain an initial legal
position.
b. The guard must give the opponent the time and/or distance to avoid
contact.
c. The distance need not be more than two strides.
d. If the opponent is airborne, the guard must have obtained legal
position before the opponent left the floor.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

bucky wrote
1) Turnover by Team B near division line. A1 gathers the ball and heads upcourt. Immediately after A1 gets control, B1, 10 feet away and in front of A1, is facing A1. B1, turns away from A1 and sprints to get back on defense. A1 is slow while B1 is fast. B1, facing away from A1 the entire time he was sprinting back, gets to the low defensive block, stops, and is still facing away from A1, with his back to A1. A1 continues his fast-break and plows into the back of B1. Ruling?

2) Same play except B1 never faced A1. Ruling?

Side note: When we discuss Legal Guarding Position, does distance matter? For example, A1 is guarding B1. A1 is 30 feet away from B1 and facing B1. Is A1 considered to be in legal guarding position?

NFHS Basketball Rules:

Play #1: B1 Obtained a LGP and moved legally to maintain it. PCF by A1.

Play #2: B1 set a legal moving screen. PCF by A1.

MTD, Sr.

bob jenkins

bucky wrote
Side note: When we discuss Legal Guarding Position, does distance matter? For example, A1 is guarding B1. A1 is 30 feet away from B1 and facing B1. Is A1 considered to be in legal guarding position?

By rule, distance doesn't matter. In practice, the farther away* B1 is from A1, the tougher it is to observe the initial legal guarding position.

(Amended: From 0' - 3', the farther, the easier. Form 3'-6', it's flat. From 6'+, the farther, the harder. Yes, I mean those distances exactly.)

Camron Rust

bucky wrote
Side note: When we discuss Legal Guarding Position, does distance matter? For example, A1 is guarding B1. A1 is 30 feet away from B1 and facing B1. Is A1 considered to be in legal guarding position?

Distance does not matter. However, A1 must also be in B1's path. Example. B1 at the top of the key driving straight down the middle. A1 in the corner (30' away) facing B1. A1 does not have LGP. If A1 were in the middle of the lane with B1 heading at A1 from 30' away, A1 would have had LGP.

BillyMac

Regarding a defender facing ball handler (with a dash of torso language), I'd like to change this up a little, hopefully making it simpler.

A1 receives a pass and fakes a shot from behind the three point arc. The fake gets B1 (A1's defender) in the air, and A1 dribbles past B1 into the lane area. Defender B2, who was standing on the block in a zone defense, believing A1 shot the ball, turns to face the basket (never facing A1) expecting to get a possible rebound of A1's faked shot attempt. A1 plows into the back of a stationary B2, knocking B2 down.

I've got a player control foul on A1, but I'm not sure why.

Am I correct, and why, or why not?

bob jenkins

BillyMac wrote
Regarding a defender facing ball handler (with a dash of torso language), I'd like to change this up a little, hopefully making it simpler.

A1 receives a pass and fakes a shot from behind the three point arc. The fake gets B1 (A1's defender) in the air, and A1 dribbles past B1 into the lane area. Defender B2, who was standing on the block in a zone defense, believing A1 shot the ball, turns to face the basket (never facing A1) expecting to get a possible rebound of A1's faked shot attempt. A1 plows into the back of a stationary B2, knocking B2 down.

I've got a player control foul on A1, but I'm not sure why.

Am I correct, and why, or why not?

B2 legally got to a spot and was stationary when he was displaced by A1, who had the ball.

LGP allows Bx to be moving when contact and still have the foul be on A1. Since B2 wasn't moving in your play, that's not relevant to the decision.

BillyMac

bob jenkins wrote
B2 legally got to a spot and was stationary when he was displaced by A1, who had the ball. LGP allows Bx to be moving when contact and still have the foul be on A1. Since B2 wasn't moving in your play, that's not relevant to the decision.

So legal guarding position allows some movement by the defense. With no movement, legal guarding position becomes irrelevant.

Thanks.

Some probably believe that the purpose of legal guarding position is to only put limitations on the defender, when in actuality, legal guarding position actually allows the defender to move in certain ways just as much as it limits the movements of the defender.

bucky

BillyMac wrote
Regarding a defender facing ball handler (with a dash of torso language), I'd like to change this up a little, hopefully making it simpler.

A1 receives a pass and fakes a shot from behind the three point arc. The fake gets B1 (A1's defender) in the air, and A1 dribbles past B1 into the lane area. Defender B2, who was standing on the block in a zone defense, believing A1 shot the ball, turns to face the basket (never facing A1) expecting to get a possible rebound of A1's faked shot attempt. A1 plows into the back of a stationary B2, knocking B2 down.

I've got a player control foul on A1, but I'm not sure why.

Am I correct, and why, or why not?

Good example, better than mine although I just witnessed mine last week.

If going by definition of charging, you are correct with a PCF in your case.

One thing many tend to forget is that "torso" means trunk of the body. This includes the back, not necessarily just the front.

BillyMac

bucky wrote
... "torso" means trunk of the body. This includes the back, not necessarily just the front.

Good point. Thanks.