Dribble ...

bucky

A dribble has parts..such as throwing/hitting/batting as well as player control. Once A1 has ended his dribble, he can start another one by throwing (one part) it but then the subsequent control (another part) is what made it illegal. For me, the same logic applies to your case of a shooter, afraid of getting blocked, and releasing it to the floor. Everything is fine until the next part (touching the ball) makes it illegal. I am yet to witness any ref at any level call a violation before the ball even hits the floor. In fact, I have never seen one call it without the player touching the ball. I think that one could easily say the same about A1 (ended dribble) throwing the ball way from himself. No ref is calling anything until A1 touches the ball again.

Just my opinion.

Camron Rust

bucky wrote
A dribble has parts..such as throwing/hitting/batting as well as player control. Once A1 has ended his dribble, he can start another one by throwing (one part) it but then the subsequent control (another part) is what made it illegal. For me, the same logic applies to your case of a shooter, afraid of getting blocked, and releasing it to the floor. Everything is fine until the next part (touching the ball) makes it illegal. I am yet to witness any ref at any level call a violation before the ball even hits the floor. In fact, I have never seen one call it without the player touching the ball. I think that one could easily say the same about A1 (ended dribble) throwing the ball way from himself. No ref is calling anything until A1 touches the ball again.

Just my opinion.

I disagree. If it isn't a dribble until the ball is again touched, a player starting a dribble wouldn't be able to pick up the pivot foot until the ball came back to the hand after pushing it to the floor (since the pivot foot must stay down until the dribble is started).

The dribble starts by deliberately pushing/throwing the ball TO the floor. That is the control...the deliberate throw/push, not the next action. Nothing about the definition of a dribble requires anything else to happen.

It just happens that, in practice, most officials wait until it is touched again before declaring it a dribble because it is harder to argue against it at that point, but that doesn't change the fact that it was a dribble the moment it left the hand(s).

BillyMac

Camron Rust wrote
The dribble starts by deliberately pushing/throwing the ball TO the floor. That is the control...the deliberate throw/push, not the next action. Nothing about the definition of a dribble requires anything else to happen ... the fact that it was a dribble the moment it left the hand.

Play A: A1 ends his dribble, intentionally throws the ball in the air, runs several feet, and catches the ball that hasn't touched the floor.

I was thinking along the same line (similar, but not exactly the same, see next post). That's the only explanation for this play (above) being illegal. I'm not a big fan of the start of the dribble being the same as a dribble (it sure would the simpler if the ball hit the floor), but it's the only explanation for this illegal act. I'm also not sure when the start of a dribble turns into an actual dribble (maybe because it's one in the same), nor am sure when the dribble ends. But still, Camron Rust's explanation is the only one that makes any sense for this (ball never hitting the floor) to be an illegal act.

BillyMac

Camron Rust wrote
If it isn't a dribble until the ball is again touched, a player starting a dribble wouldn't be able to pick up the pivot foot until the ball came back to the hand after pushing it to the floor (since the pivot foot must stay down until the dribble is started).

Disagree, maybe not in theory, but in practice. The start of a dribble and the start of a pass may legally look exactly the same, and until officials have the ability read a player's mind (intent) we have to wait to see if the "thrown" ball is touched again by the player, or by a teammate, or by an opponent.

We do know that if a player jumps to "throw" a pass and then changes his mind and decides to dribble (as evidenced by the next touch, because it may actually be a pass), then that's a illegal travel violation because the ball must be released before the pivot foot is lifted to start a dribble.

BillyMac

bucky wrote
A1 (ended dribble) throwing the ball way from himself. No ref is calling anything until A1 touches the ball again.

Agree, maybe it was the start of a pass, but this thread deals with whether, or not, the ball has to actually hit the floor for there to be a dribble (I think it doesn't).

Camron Rust

BillyMac wrote
Disagree, maybe not in theory, but in practice. The start of a dribble and the start of a pass may legally look exactly the same, and until officials have the ability read a player's mind (intent) we have to wait to see if the "thrown" ball is touched again by the player, or by a teammate, or by an opponent.

We do know that if a player jumps to "throw" a pass and then changes his mind and decides to dribble (as evidenced by the next touch, because it may actually be a pass), then that's a illegal dribble violation because the ball must be released before the pivot foot is lifted to start a dribble.

We already have to judge intent (try or no try when fouled). This is no different. Everyone knows which it is when it happens, some just want to wait until it can't be argued.

Nevadaref

BillyMac wrote
Agree, maybe it was the start of a pass, but this thread deals with whether, or not, the ball has to actually hit the floor for there to be a dribble (I think it doesn't).

The ball must contact the floor to be a legal dribble. If it doesn't, then it is an illegal dribble. See how that works?
Now go look up the old "air-dribble" which the NFHS banned decades ago. It is why the ball must strike the floor.

BillyMac

Camron Rust wrote
We already have to judge intent (try or no try when fouled). This is no different. Everyone knows which it is when it happens, some just want to wait until it can't be argued.

It's just that sometimes the start of a pass (especially a bounce pass), and the start of a dribble, may look exactly the same. Context clues (with experience) are certainly of value, but sometimes the players try to fake each other, which can also fake the officials. I'm on the side of waiting, no need for my impatient whistle to prevent a great pass, or a great steal.

BillyMac

Nevadaref wrote
The ball must contact the floor to be a legal dribble. If it doesn't, then it is an illegal dribble.

Doesn't the chicken have to lay an egg before the egg can be deemed illegal? Doesn't it have to be a dribble for it to be an illegal dribble? For a player to dribble illegally, doesn't he have to dribble? He can't be illegally dribbling when he's not dribbling? Maybe he's doing something else? Right?

I see Nevadaref's point (and may actually agree with him) but wish the NFHS rule language made this more clear.

Rule 9 Section 5 Illegal Dribble
A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended,
unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 A try for field goal.
ART. 2 A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by,
another player.

And, of course, there's always that quote from that ancient basketball clinician, Confucius:

If it's not illegal, it's legal.

Nevadaref, another ancient basketball clinician, seems to be saying:

If it's not legal, it's illegal.

How can one argue with that logic?

Nevadaref wrote
Now go look up the old "air-dribble" which the NFHS banned decades ago.

https://forum.officiating.com/550795-post36.html

bucky

Camron Rust wrote
I disagree. If it isn't a dribble until the ball is again touched, a player starting a dribble wouldn't be able to pick up the pivot foot until the ball came back to the hand after pushing it to the floor (since the pivot foot must stay down until the dribble is started).

I was not referring to starting a dribble. You are.

bucky

BillyMac wrote
".. illegal dribble violation because the ball must be released before the pivot foot is lifted to start a dribble.

Isn't that traveling and not an illegal dribble?

Camron Rust

bucky wrote
I was not referring to starting a dribble. You are.

Actually, you are too. Once it is started, it is a dribble and all of the relevant dribble restrictions apply. The ball does not, by rule, have to be touched again for it to be a dribble.. Howeover, many just wait, as you said, until the next touch to confirm it but that doesn't mean that is when it becomes a dribble.

bucky

Nevadaref wrote
The ball must contact the floor to be a legal dribble.

Technically, not true.

BillyMac

bucky wrote
Isn't that traveling and not an illegal dribble?

Thanks, fixed it.

44-3-C: The pivot foot may not be lifted before the ball is released, to start a dribble.

BillyMac

bucky wrote
Technically, not true.

Example, or citation please (would prefer an example).

Not to be argumentative, but for the good of the cause.

BillyMac

Camron Rust wrote
... many just wait, as you said, until the next touch to confirm it ...

Not waiting, in many cases, but probably not all, is paramount to just plain old ordinary guessing, and we as officials, try to avoid guessing as much as we possibly can.

Not many of us carry a crystal ball in our pocket with an extra whistle, and an extra needle.

BillyMac

Camron Rust wrote
Once it is started, it is a dribble and all of the relevant dribble restrictions apply. The ball does not, by rule, have to be touched again for it to be a dribble.

It doesn't feel right, but by rule you may be correct, but by practical application, most times we should wait to confirm that it's not the start of a bounce pass.

This rule could be better worded, much better worded.

bucky

Camron Rust wrote
Actually, you are too. Once it is started, it is a dribble and all of the relevant dribble restrictions apply. The ball does not, by rule, have to be touched again for it to be a dribble.. Howeover, many just wait, as you said, until the next touch to confirm it but that doesn't mean that is when it becomes a dribble.

No, I am not. You are referring to starting a dribble initially. I am not referring to that at all but rather starting a dribble once a dribble has ended. One might think they are or at least should be the same however the case book clearly distinguishes the two.

bucky

BillyMac wrote
Example, or citation please (would prefer an example).

Yes and then the gurus complain about users not reading/finding it themselves. Sigh. Check 4.15.1 Sit C and 4.15.5 Sit C. They involve dribbles without the ball touching the floor. Hard to believe that throwing the ball against an official is considered a dribble.

Camron Rust

bucky wrote
No, I am not. You are referring to starting a dribble initially. I am not referring to that at all but rather starting a dribble once a dribble has ended. One might think they are or at least should be the same however the case book clearly distinguishes the two.

If the initial dribble is started on the release, how is a subsequent (illegal) dribble not also started on the release?

Again, we may choose to wait for what happens next to make a call (or not), but that doesn't change the fact that the dribble actually began on the release.