Score book shenanigans

deecee

ballgame99 wrote
I like this approach much better, but is this in the case/rule book? I guess the risk would be some coach changing his mind at the last minute and blaming the table. Agree that none of this is a big deal, but you know how bent out of shape some folks get about this stuff.

The coach only has to provide his roster and starters. If there is proof that what was provided was copied erroneously then we aren't going to penalize a coach.

Usually you ask to see what was provided to the home book.

Adam

frezer11 wrote
I don't have them look either, for the exact same reason. If you have them look it over after the 10 minute mark (which at least in my area is almost all you ever see for warmup time because they're trying to stay on schedule), then there is nothing they can change, so why worry about it?

Not only that, but the coach is, by rule, not responsible for a scoring error even if you force him to sign the book.

WhistlesAndStripes

deecee wrote
The coach only has to provide his roster and starters. If there is proof that what was provided was copied erroneously then we aren't going to penalize a coach.

Usually you ask to see what was provided to the ~~home book~~official scorekeeper.

I consider the home book to be the book being kept on the home team's bench, if there is in fact one. What really matters is what's given to the official scorekeeper.

Rich

ballgame99 wrote
One starter for the visitor was marked wrong. #35 was marked as a starter, coach wanted #32. They had it right in their book, but it got copied over wrong. The R (my partner) had head coach look it over pregame and he signed off on it. Table notifies us pre-toss, Visitor coach whines but puts #35 in and takes #32 out. My partner issues a T! 😮 I notify him that the coach should be allowed to switch them out with no penalty. He doesn't take my advice. So now coach wants to go ahead and start #32 since he has to pay the penalty. I allow it. My partner informs me and coach that isn't allowable and makes #35 start. 😮 I looked it up after the game to make sure; Case play 3.2.2 clearly says the starters can be switched out without penalty, and the only time there is a penalty for this is if coach wants to go ahead and start #32 despite her not being marked as a starter. I did not always have coaches look over the book, but I will be doing so from now on for sure.

Why would you have a coach inspect the book? Cause your partner didn't know the rules?

BryanV21

Take a look at the visitor book.

If the correct starter is marked there, you have evidence that it was a copying error. Allow the change in the home/official book... without penalty... and start the game.

If the visitor book is the same as the home/official book, which has a different starter, then move on to a tech to make a change or let the team switch the starter to what's in the book without penalty.

You don't have to be a hard-ass about everything.

deecee

Whistles & Stripes wrote
I consider the home book to be the book being kept on the home team's bench, if there is in fact one. What really matters is what's given to the official scorekeeper.

In reality the home book 99.99% of the time IS the official scorekeeper.

Raymond

BryanV21 wrote
...
You don't have to be a hard-ass about everything.

This has nothing to do with being a hard ass. The crew chief kicked every rule associated with this situation.

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BryanV21

BadNewsRef wrote
This has nothing to do with being a hard ass. The crew chief kicked every rule associated with this situation.

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I was making a general statement about dealing with some situations. I don't believe the rule book allows officials to use the visitor book to prove that it was an error in copying the visiting team's starters into the home/official book. But if a situation like this came up, and I can see the visitor book had the "right" starters, then I'd let it go.

Yes, in the case brought up in the OP, the official messed up.

Adam

BryanV21 wrote
I was making a general statement about dealing with some situations. I don't believe the rule book allows officials to use the visitor book to prove that it was an error in copying the visiting team's starters into the home/official book. But if a situation like this came up, and I can see the visitor book had the "right" starters, then I'd let it go.

Yes, in the case brought up in the OP, the official messed up.

Actually, it does. The coach is only required to provide the information to the official scorer. That's it. 10-1-1

In the OP, the coach provided the correct information, so there should have been no penalty for the scorer to correct his own mistake.

2-11-11 "...A bookkeeping mistake may be corrected at any time until the referee approves the final score...."

This is a bookkeeping mistake and should have been corrected without penalty.

twocentsworth

This is EXACTLY why you should have a coach from each team review the official scorebook (for correct player #'s AND correct starters) and require their initials as evidence of their approval.

This very easily removes the responsibility from the official scorer and game officials of any mistakes being made. Once the coach approves the scorebook, THAT is when the info. has been provided to the official scorer - there is NO POSSIBILITY for scorer error...

bob jenkins

100% disagree. The coach doesn't really have time to look at the list in detail just before the game -- s/he has more important things to do.

WhistlesAndStripes

twocentsworth wrote
This is EXACTLY why you should have a coach from each team review the official scorebook (for correct player #'s AND correct starters) and require their initials as evidence of their approval.

This very easily removes the responsibility from the official scorer and game officials of any mistakes being made. Once the coach approves the scorebook, THAT is when the info. has been provided to the official scorer - there is NO POSSIBILITY for scorer error...

False. When the coach hands a roster of all players and marked starters to the official scorers as soon as he gets on the floor 20 minutes before game time, he has done his duty. No need for him to review how it got copied into the scorebook.

BryanV21

Adam wrote
Actually, it does. The coach is only required to provide the information to the official scorer. That's it. 10-1-1

In the OP, the coach provided the correct information, so there should have been no penalty for the scorer to correct his own mistake.

2-11-11 "...A bookkeeping mistake may be corrected at any time until the referee approves the final score...."

This is a bookkeeping mistake and should have been corrected without penalty.

So what I laid out is stated in the rule book. I don't recall the rule book saying anything regarding the visitor/unofficial book, let alone it being used to prove the home/official book received a different starting lineup.

Are you just trying to be argumentative with me? I don't get it.

Rich

twocentsworth wrote
This is EXACTLY why you should have a coach from each team review the official scorebook (for correct player #'s AND correct starters) and require their initials as evidence of their approval.

This very easily removes the responsibility from the official scorer and game officials of any mistakes being made. Once the coach approves the scorebook, THAT is when the info. has been provided to the official scorer - there is NO POSSIBILITY for scorer error...

None of this is right. Do you have a rules book?

SNIPERBBB

BryanV21 wrote
So what I laid out is stated in the rule book. I don't recall the rule book saying anything regarding the visitor/unofficial book, let alone it being used to prove the home/official book received a different starting lineup.

Are you just trying to be argumentative with me? I don't get it.

The official book has to get the names and number from somewhere, they don't just come up with the information from thin air. It most likely came froe the visitor book unless the coach provided the scorer with a different roster.

BryanV21

SNIPERBBB wrote
The official book has to get the names and number from somewhere, they don't just come up with the information from thin air. It most likely came froe the visitor book unless the coach provided the scorer with a different roster.

"most likely"

Again... Where does the rule book say to use that book as proof of starters?

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SNIPERBBB

You can use whatever source of legal information to make a determination for making a ruling. The official book is the fallback when you can't find anything to the contrary. And the official book can be changed.

deecee

Man you guys are over complicating this. If I have an issue like this I ask the home (official, whatever) book, where they got the info from. Then I ask the visiting coach what he provided. If the home book used the visitors scorebook and the coach says "No i gave a piece of paper." and then we find the piece of paper case solved. If the coach says I told them to copy the visitors book and that was where the error was, then it's on the coach.

But I ask the coach what he/she provided and use that as my comparison tool. I don't go assuming anything.

SCalScoreKeeper

In my case I pull varsity rosters from MaxPreps and prep from that.When the varsity coaches show up I have them check and verify everything is correct before the officials are even out there.

Adam

BryanV21 wrote
"most likely"

Again... Where does the rule book say to use that book as proof of starters?

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As the scorer, "where did you get your information?"

If the coach, or a representative of the team, filled it out directly, call the T or have him start the marked starters.

If the scorer says he got it from the V book, or from a program given him by the team, check the source document.

You need to do this to determine whether the coach met his obligations under the rule.

Again, per rule, bookkeeping errors can be corrected at any time.