Illegal substitution?

johnsonboys03

A1 thru A5 is on the floor. A6 is waiting at the Table. A coach calls timeout. Referee says sub your in, timeout A coach full timeout start it. On resumption of play A1 thru A5 are on the floor. Before the ball is administered the B coach says #30 (A6) isn't on the floor. What do we have?

JeffM

Whoever A6 went in for should be out of the game and needs to "sit a tick". A6 is not required to be in the game.

BillyMac

johnsonboys03 wrote
A1 thru A5 is on the floor. A6 is waiting at the Table. A coach calls timeout. Referee says sub your in, timeout A coach full timeout start it. On resumption of play A1 thru A5 are on the floor. Before the ball is administered the B coach says #30 (A6) isn't on the floor. What do we have?

A player who has been replaced, or directed to leave the game, shall not re-enter (with rare exceptions) before the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has been started properly following his, or her, replacement. In other words, a player who has been replaced must sit a tick of the clock, however, a player doesn't have to play a tick of the clock.

A6 was beckoned (Referee says sub your in) and therefor, became a player.

A6 doesn't have to play a tick, but the player he replaced must sit a tick.

Good luck trying to figure out who A6 replaced.

DrPete

A6 does not have to play at this point. Player can be subbed in, and then out again with no time off the clock. But A5 cannot return until the clock has been properly started and time run off. Any other eligible player on the bench can come in to replace A6, as long as he reported to the table before the first horn, then play on.

johnsonboys03

BillyMac wrote
A player who has been replaced, or directed to leave the game, shall not re-enter (with rare exceptions) before the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has been started properly following his, or her, replacement. In other words, a player who has been replaced must sit a tick of the clock, however, a player doesn't have to play a tick of the clock.

A6 was beckoned (Referee says sub your in) and therefor, became a player.

A6 doesn't have to play a tick, but the player he replaced must sit a tick.

Good luck trying to figure out who A6 replaced.

Can you supply rule on that. This is a big argument in our chapter meeting right now.

BillyMac

DrPete wrote
... A5 cannot return until the clock has been properly started and time run off.

Hold on partner. Where does it say that A6 replaced A5? It could have been A1, A2, A3, A4, or A5.

johnsonboys03

DrPete wrote
A6 does not have to play at this point. Player can be subbed in, and then out again with no time off the clock. But A5 cannot return until the clock has been properly started and time run off. Any other eligible player on the bench can come in to replace A6, as long as he reported to the table before the first horn, then play on.

So would you prevent anything by telling A5 Can not be in the game. Or is it a technical foul for an illegal player?

BillyMac

johnsonboys03 wrote
Can you supply rule on that.

3-3-4: A player who has been replaced, or directed to leave the game shall
not re-enter before the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has been
started properly following his/her replacement.

BillyMac

johnsonboys03 wrote
So would you prevent anything by telling A5 Can not be in the game. Or is it a technical foul for an illegal player?

Why do assume it's A5? It could have been A1, A2, A3, A4, or A5.

Camron Rust

johnsonboys03 wrote
Can you supply rule on that. This is a big argument in our chapter meeting right now.

There isn't a rule that says A6 doesn't have to play. There doesn't need to be a rule. There also isn't a rule that says A6 must play....because it isn't required.

What is required is that a player that is replaced can't return.

Rule 3, Section 3, ART. 4 . . . A player who has been replaced, or directed to leave the game shall not re-enter before the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has been started properly following his/her replacement.

But, as has been said, if no player had yet left the game, there is no way you can tell who was supposed to have left.

johnsonboys03

BillyMac wrote
Hold on partner. Where does it say that A6 replaced A5? It could have been A1, A2, A3, A4, or A5.

Lets say A5 was the replaced player

BillyMac

BillyMac wrote
A6 was beckoned (Referee says sub your in) and therefor, became a player.

Hold onto your horses BillyMac.

Does the substitute become a player when he's beckoned, or when he enters the court?

Does the original post state that A6 entered the court? I don't think so.

3-3-3: A substitute becomes a player when he/she legally enters the court.
If entry is not legal, the substitute becomes a player when the ball becomes live.
A player becomes bench personnel after his/her substitute becomes a player or
after notification of the coach following his/her disqualification.

BillyMac

johnsonboys03 wrote
Lets say A5 was the replaced player

Easy to say here on the Forum. Good luck trying to figure it out in a real game.

Rich

johnsonboys03 wrote
A1 thru A5 is on the floor. A6 is waiting at the Table. A coach calls timeout. Referee says sub your in, timeout A coach full timeout start it. On resumption of play A1 thru A5 are on the floor. Before the ball is administered the B coach says #30 (A6) isn't on the floor. What do we have?

An official who has no business beckoning a sub. Call the timeout, let A do what they want to do prior to the warning horn.

I'd have no problem with A1 through A5 in the game after the timeout.

johnsonboys03

BillyMac wrote
Hold onto your horses BillyMac.

Does the substitute become a player when he's beckoned, or when he enters the court?

Does the original post state that A6 entered the court? I don't think so.

3-3-3: A substitute becomes a player when he/she legally enters the court.
If entry is not legal, the substitute becomes a player when the ball becomes live.
A player becomes bench personnel after his/her substitute becomes a player or
after notification of the coach following his/her disqualification.

Your question is the argument. What makes it a legal entry. Because if the beckoning doesn't do it in this situation, then technically they would have to check in again before the 15 second horn. Even then if you would check in before the horn can the coach resend that sub and leave the original player in the game?

Adam

johnsonboys03 wrote
So would you prevent anything by telling A5 Can not be in the game. Or is it a technical foul for an illegal player?

The rule is that a replaced player cannot return until the clock has run.

For many years now, players do not have to identify the player they are replacing when they check in. So in reality, there's no way to identify the player who must return. IOW, there's nothing you can do here except ignore B Coach's attempt at a cheap technical foul against A.

Rich

This is the kind of situation that's interesting to talk about, along with questions like "how many angels can fit on the head of a pin."

In the real world, though, a team can call back a sub that's reported, so whether A6 comes into the game or not, the official has nothing to do.

johnsonboys03

Rich wrote
This is the kind of situation that's interesting to talk about, along with questions like "how many angels can fit on the head of a pin."

In the real world, though, a team can call back a sub that's reported, so whether A6 comes into the game or not, the official has nothing to do.

So when does a player become a legal player. Why check in at all? I understand what your saying and I had nothing on this play either but there is a legitimate question here. Not as silly as you make it seem.

BigCat

johnsonboys03 wrote
Your question is the argument. What makes it a legal entry. Because if the beckoning doesn't do it in this situation, then technically they would have to check in again before the 15 second horn. Even then if you would check in before the horn can the coach resend that sub and leave the original player in the game?

If A6 did not enter the court he did not become a player. Whatever player he reported for still is a player. A6 has reported. He could go in at end of timeout without reporting again. It is the same thing as him being at the table and being pulled back by his coach. Horn can be blown, we can say your in but until he enters he can be pulled back.

Rich

johnsonboys03 wrote
So when does a player become a legal player. Why check in at all? I understand what your saying and I had nothing on this play either but there is a legitimate question here. Not as silly as you make it seem.

That's specifically covered in the rule book. Have a look. I'm surprised that an entire association would miss this.