Sitting a player down
 

Does an official have authority to require you to sit out a player for the remainder of a quarter because of something he doesn't like?

This weekend at a team camp the opposing team was full court man pressing after a dead ball and the guy guarding my PG was very physical before the inbounder even had the ball. My PG loves this because he gets to pretend he is a big man so he just holds his ground uses a armbar to create space and easily catches the inbound pass and is fouled. Prior to the ensuing inbound the same activity but the official tells my PG to put his elbows down and waits for him to comply. Then because my PG again created space with what I would have happily accepted as an offensive foul the official hits his whistle and insists that I sit my PG down. No foul just that I remove him from the game.

Of course I complied but it got me to thinking what would happen if I did not? Is there a rule that says that I must comply with an officials request to sit a kid simply because of barely physical play? I think I would much rather just have a ref call an offensive foul or two if he objected to the contact than to immediately bench my player.

Of course we can't do that. If a player's style is too consistently rough or illegal, he will disqualify himself with five fouls; if it is sufficiently unsporting, violent, or otherwise unacceptable, he'll disqualify himself with two Ts or a flagrant/flagrant T. Otherwise, no, we can't do that.

ESPECIALLY in a summer league, call these fouls - what better time for kids to get the message, or officials to learn to penalize illegal contact? :cool:

Depends upon the rules of the summer league.
Some don't track individual fouls, but give the officials the authority to remove a player from the contest for constantly fouling or being overly rough.

No, an official cannot direct a player to sit for a prescribed length of time. He can:

A) penalize him for some kind of foul.
B) in certain circumstances, direct him to leave the game (and be substituted for) for refusing to comply with a direction ("tuck your shirt in" comes to mind). But even that action is only valid until the coach next has an opportunity to sub him back in (provided some amount of time has run off the clock).

I would totally, unequivocally choose option (A) in this case, specifically a personal (team control) foul.

Probably wise not to argue with the official in your situation, but a call to his assigner/commissioner or your league coordinator afterwards would be completely warranted.

NOTE: Nevada makes a good point. My assessment is strictly based on NFHS rules, but if league rules grant an official the kind of authority he mentioned, than the official is within his rights.

I've done this in summer league games where personal fouls aren't tracked. It can be a handy tool when the game gets out of control with no personal fouls.

During the actual season the rules don't allow for this. Closest I come to this during the season is a suggestion to a coach that said player may want to sit for a bit as he/she is crossing a line, but it's up to the coach whether they act on that advice.

In summer camp, it can happen.

As others have said we don't have the authority to "sit a player down" unless the specific league rules permit it. If the rules don't allow for it, then the best approach is to call the foul.

There have been situations where I have quietly told a coach that #xx was getting out of control and they needed to calm him/her down, and in almost every case the coach took care of it. The vast majority of coaches have been very cooperative in these situations.

However we do have other options if needed, depending on the situation.

Case in point - 4 years ago in a JVB regular season game: Home is up by 20 with about 1:30 left in Q4. Home has the ball and is passing it around the perimeter and as H2 at the elbow extended passes the ball back to H1, V2 comes charging up from the lower block on the lane line and violently pushes H2 off the court into the home bench.

I immediately came up with an intentional foul signal, quickly verified that H2 seemed to be OK then walked past the table telling them I would be with them in a second. I then approached the visiting HC and quietly told him that V2 was completely out of control (the kid had been getting more & more physical over the last couple minutes and calling fouls didn't stop him) and needed to come out of the game before someone really got hurt. The coach gave me a line of crap about it was nothing but good hard defense and he wanted to see more of it.

So I went to the reporting area, and reported a flagrant intentional foul on V2, which I had every justification in doing based on V2's actions. As a result, the kid was suspended and the school was fined. It was probably a mistake to give the coach a chance to handle it, and in hind sight if something like that ever happens again I'll more than likely just go straight to the flagrant.

No.

Buuut it's something that you might be able to get away with at lower levels and when used correctly could be effective.

I have done this several times during the summer when there is no other disqualification or even standard ejection or technical policy. It works well.

And if I am on the game, I will do whatever I see fit to get a game under control. Now if they wish to make this a problem, game over and problem solved.

Peace

Is this your god complex talking or can it be justified by a rule somewhere?

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!! Greatly amusing that a guy with only 23 posts picked up on that right away.

1. When a player commits an act of violence, the proper penalty is a flagrant foul.
2. There is no such thing as a "flagrant intentional foul." A foul is either intentional or flagrant, but cannot be both.
3. Your last sentence is the correct way to handle this. (flagrant personal foul)

This statement was qualified under the assumption that it's a summer league game that doesn't keep track of fouls/DQ's/ejections, and you both damn well know it.

When you tell me what rules you apply to a summer league, then we can talk about what rules do or do not apply. At least where I am at, we do not apply most regular rules never apply.

And yes officials where I live can do just about anything they want in a summer league that is best for the game. ;)

Peace

Teams during the summer do not have legal jerseys, but I guess some fool thinks we penalize those too by the rules?

Oh well.

Peace

Why does this constantly happen?

I have worked summer leagues where this is an option and I agree that it is a great tool.

However, when it is not an option and an official suggests that you do that it might be a good idea to agree. If not, the next foul on that player just might be flagrant ;) Not saying I would do that...but it could happen.

Would you rather sit the player for a few minutes or sit them for the rest of the game?

It is summer, that is why?

Are you telling me where you live they play all the rules during summer that they play during the regular season?

Where I am and even in my experience in other states, summer games are running clock games where you are lucky if they even keep track of fouls, individual points or any regular stats. There are games were we will not even shoot bonus FTs like a normal game and we certainly do not have the same substitution standards.

The purpose of summer leagues are to be exposed to their high school coaches and players and give kids a chance to play or run their systems so that they are familiar with what they will be doing when real practice starts. Heck teams are even lucky to have all their players playing during any particular game, league or tournament.

It seems like there is this total disconnect for what summer is for most of us.

Peace

It isn't a huge amount but it is cheaper to use 6, 7, 8, and 9 than to use double digits. An extra dollar or so per digit, front and back, on either a reversible jersey or two sets adds up with 10-15 players.

I am sure that is the case, but I did not work a tournament this summer yet (for high school) that kept track of any personal fouls. And team fouls were not tracked the same in many cases either. Some did not even shoot FTs until the last minute or couple minutes of the game. I doubt jersey cost is an issue when leagues are not using those rules as normal in the first place.

Peace

Might vary by locality, but at the (very few) games I've been at, it looked like teams were just wearing their reversable practice shirts -- including two-digit numbers in the 60s and 70s.

Thanks for the replies. The summer camp actually did keep fouls which is why I would have preferred just calling an offensive foul if he saw it that way, so that maybe the player would have learned something from the play. And like I said I complied happily, just wanted some clarification since I couldn't find any reference for the situation in a rulebook... unless my players jersey got pulled out from the wrestling.

Thanks for the helpful replies.

Cameron - Interesting. That's really the first viable explanation I've heard. But, I'll have to keep an eye out to see if I see more 8s and 9s than 72's and 67's.

I know I have a league that only has numbers on the front for this reason. Pain in the butt to try and find a number sometime. But, they have a running clock, so, it's not that big a deal to ask them to turn around. :)

This is what we see. Most of the time they are just a practice jersey that might have any number on them because they came in a pack. I am not even convinced they asked for specific numbers most of the time. And there are even kids that have no jersey, but some T-shirt that may not even have the school's name on them.

Peace

I cannot speak for your camp or league, but many times where I live these are overall teaching environments. They are places to teach kids things they might not get during the regular season. I know I talk to players a lot more during the summer than I ever would during the season. I would suspect that that is what the official was doing and the rules based on the laid back nature of these things was giving you a chance to correct the situation without calling a T or even making a higher level call like an intentional or flagrant. Again a lot of this is based on the culture of these games, which is why many are not talking about rules in these kinds of situations. Usually rules would complicate these situations when you do not keep track of fouls and not shoot all the proper FTs.

Peace

penalty box
 

A few years back, my son was playing in a junior high summer tournament in Oregon. One of his teammates was a known hot head who was getting close to boiling. When he got too physical on a play, the ref called a common foul, then came over to the bench and said, "32 out, two minutes, pushing." I thought to myself, "We're at a hockey game?"

Coach put him on the bench for 2 minutes, the kid cooled down, came back in and finished the game with no problems.

At that level, at that venue, I thought it was a great piece of officiating.

Regular season (high school or above), it might be worth challenging him, or suggesting he just call the PC foul. There is no rule justification for doing this.

Summer ball where the rules are "adjusted" a bit (either officially or unofficially), sit your player down and send him right back in.

Mark Padgett reffed your son's game? Cool.