Game Scenario for Discussion
 

Setup: State sanctioned spring/summer league where JV players looking to advance to varsity play for their own schools against other schools in the area. Officials work in a 3-person crew. Modified rules include 20-min running clock halves, but the clock stops in the last two minutes of the second half (excepting for a 25-point mercy rule).

Situation: 3-person crew. Team A was dominant most of the game and up by about 18 points early in the second half. But Team B goes on a run and comes to within 6 when the ball becomes dead/clock stops with 59.8 remaining. Team A has an endline spot throw-in under Team B's basket, and Team B is pressing. You're the new lead ready to receive the play as it comes down court and you're right by Team A's bench. Coach A calls timeout before A1 releases a throw-in pass, but by the time you put air in the whistle, the throw-in pass has been released and is in flight. You grant the timeout. Then you look up at the clock and see 58.4.

Taking all of this context into account, what do you do?

You put the 59.8 back on the clock? Why is this even a question?

just another ref....I don't want to stymie the discussion but I sent you a PM.

I'm not sure if I'm missing something because I also wonder why this is a question? In addition to what jar said, I'm telling timer to not start the clock until I signal (which will be when the ball is legally touched in bounds) after the timeout.

But a pretty straightforward ruling. The other background info has no bearing on the ruling.

I will preface my comment by saying that I do not do much 3 man.

In this case, as I read the description, the timer should not be looking at the lead for the signal to start the clock. Given the timing mentioned in the OP, I would not have an issue with the timer unless I knew 100% that a partner had not dropped the hand.

As for the clock. I am resetting it to the time prior to the throw, as no time legally came off the clock.

Air was put in the whistle when the ball was loose- no timeout can be granted, inadvertent whistle.

At least that's the only outrageous solution I can come up with at this ungodly hour.

Why not? If you don't get air in the whistle when a foul is still occurring, is it too late to call the foul?

My post notwithstanding, I'm going to pretend I'm a casual observer on this and say that this is not correct. One of the rules fundamentals is that "the whistle rarely causes the ball to become dead; it is already dead." So since I know the TO was called while the thrower had the ball, that caused the ball to become dead. The whistle a second later was simply a marker of that event. That's how it works. This was most certainly not an inadvertent whistle.

I'll also cast my vot for putting the time back and for wondering why this is an issue.

Or, if it has already been established that this is a really casual atmosphere and that something as complicated as putting time back up will be frowned upon, you might tell the timer to be sure and watch for your signal after the timeout and hold for a couple of seconds before starting.

Incorrect. See case play 5.8.3 Situation E. If you grant a timeout, even erroneously, it cannot be revoked.

None of this matters. Just grant the TO, put the time back on the clock, and move on. I'm assuming there must be more to the story, since this is rather basic.

Even if you consider this an inadvertent whistle and an incorrectly granted timeout (which it is not), you would still grant the timeout and resume play by POI rules. Team control for the throw in team, so it will be A's ball. Ball location would be where the throw was released.

IOW, there's absolutely zero difference.

Also the timeout being granted and the blowing of the whistle may not happen at the same time.

Grant the timeout. Put the time back on the clock. Have a discussion with the official timer about not starting the clock until it has been signaled. If there is any confusion, call both coaches over and explain that the timeout was requested prior to the release of the ball and it was simply a timing issue when the whistle occurred.

No need for this...use your voice while selling the timeout...

BEFORE THE PASS, TIMEOUT WHITE!

It should be rare that you have to ever call both coaches over for anything.

It's good procedure if you're ejecting them both. ;)

This occurred with under a minute left in a contested game. All well and good if it's clear, but if it's loud and difficult to hear and there was play after the ball was released you may need to offer some explanation. FWIW, I would have done exactly as you described, but I'm assuming the OP did not in light of the question.

As to your other point, when coaches are surveyed as to what they most want from officials, consistency and communication are often the top two items on the list. It never hurts to have good communication, particularly in game-ending situations.

Ok, enough discussion. Here's how it went down. I noticed the time discrepancy as I was walking to the table to report the timeout. Pretty cut-and-dry, so after reporting the timeout I simply went to the timer and said, "please put 59.8 on the clock; the clock should not have started." A guy behind the timer even said, "How do you know that?" I replied, "because I looked." He said, "oh, okay."

Anyway, because the timer was having trouble, then our R comes to the table and asks what's up. I said, "the clock was at 59.8 and should not have started, so we're putting that time back on." He said, "aw no, no," and gives me a look that could kill. But just at that moment the timer got the correct time up and we went to put the ball back in play.

After the game, R says to me (U2) many things, but the jist was that this was a summer league game, and I was the only one who noticed, and since both coaches didn't notice, either, I should have just left it alone. This really irked me and I even told him that I respectfully disagreed; it goes against everything I've been taught about clock management as an official. And to just another ref's point, no it had not been established in advance that the atmosphere was very casual and that putting time back on the clock would be frowned upon. Quite the contrary, this was a 3-p game during the spring, a perfect opportunity to work on skills before we all start going to camps. We even talked about that in our pre-game. So to catch a clock error, attempt to fix it, and then be scolded for that by the crew chief was ludicrous and hypocritical. This guy, an AAU finals official, is no longer on my Christmas card list.

To be fair, the R did make a valid point. If I was going to do something with the clock, I should have brought the crew together first to talk about it before going to the table. He was right; I should have done that. That said, I think I now know what he would have decided to [not] do, and that would have left me even more unsatisfied than I already am.

I am gratified by the fact that almost everyone who commented saw it my way, which I firmly believe is the correct way. Thanks for all of the input.

I wouldn't assume being an AAU finals official automatically makes the person you should respect and/or emulate. They might be a good official; might not. But merely working AAU finals doesn't mean much to me.

This is a very basic timing mistake and a simple correction. You can tell the crew and the coaches what you have after the timer fixes it. I have no problem with you going straight to the table. There is no reason to bring the crew together when you already have definite knowledge and have the situation well under control.

I'd disagree here, when I am assigned U2 I need to make sure my R knows what is going on and in some cases check with him before I interact with the table.

I had situation this season with a last second shot and timeout by the other team immediately after. I looked at the clock after the shot went in and it said something like 1.8 seconds when I granted the timeout. By the time the clock operator stopped the clock it was .5. I knew what it was, but should have met with my partners first before going to the table to fix the clock. Two reasons for doing this: it shows everyone the crew getting together to get it right, and shows respect to my partners by checking with them.

Well cross-country, you had me fooled. Now that I look back on it, my inadvertent whistle suggestion really had no business here :D

But yes- I've been through these situations before. Its usually me trying to be professional and following things by the book as a very young official. Once I was trying to ask the table if they switched the possession arrow only to have my R run over with a staccato whistle telling me to relax and not worry about it. Yeah- I've had more than a few of my crew chiefs embarrass me.

But,I have a MAYB game on Saturday. That'll give me a chance to try and work on my "relaxed official" alias. :D

Or...it shows that you weren't sure and had to find out from your partners before fixing the clock.

How about you just blow the whistle for the timeout and loudly call out to partners "Clock needs to be at 1.8. I'll take care of it." Then go report timeout and fix the clock. You don't need permission to fix things or have an interaction with the table. Frankly, if you came to me for "permission" to handle something at the table, I would look at you like you had grown a third eye on your forehead. Go take care of it...if I can't figure out what is going on, shame on me.

My thoughts exactly. Any "R" or other crew member that feels disrespected over that has some problems.

There's a difference, imo, between the situation that starts with a stopped clock (as in the OP), and one with a running like (your situation).

Maybe a partner has a better / different idea of what the clock should be (but since you granted the TO, that's not too likely -- it's more so on an OOB or made basket in the last minute situation).

And, since you should have told the coaches what you were going to do so they could plan accordingly in the TO, your partners should have been aware.

Be an R even if you're not the R.

The NFHS rules book specifies that the R may correct timing errors. The U1 or U2 do not have this authority.

So if I am the U2 and am right there by the table and know the clock should be reset to 1.8, AND I have the audacity to turn to the table and take care of the issue, then what? Are you going to run over there and say "No, I am the R and I get to fix this. Reset the clock to 1.8!" and then run back to your position???

Do you also check the scorebook before the game when you are the U2?
I would wonder why you are doing another official's duty.

I'm not sure how it would show that I don't know....I doubt many fans are thinking "oh those refs are huddling together, that means they don't know what they are doing".

Probably because the building was so loud I couldn't yell at my partners. And I didn't say I had to ask for strict permission, just check with them to see if they had the same thing and were ok with what I thought the change should be.

Certainly, but it doesn't take much effort to go the extra mile and check with your partners before you change the clock. Once you change the clock once it is hard to change it again so why not huddle with your partners and come out with one final correction? As it was the U1 on the game (I was U2) was pissed that he didn't know what was going on when I was running around taking care of things. Like it or not I'd like to keep working with the guys in my area so I'm not gonna tell him to deal with it, no matter how irrational his "feelings" are.

All On The Same Page ...
 

Anytime the clock needs to be changed, I'm talking to my partner first, to make sure that we're both on the same page; then both coaches, they deserve an explanation; and then the table crew, who will adjust the clock.

And, it's not to keep from hurting anybody's feelings, or from stepping on anybody's toes, it's because it's the right way to do it.

From my pregame: "If anything weird happens, let's get together, and talk about it".

Hmmm...maybe because I am right there by the table and perfectly capable of taking care of it.

See, I can answer a question. Can you?? Answer the question I asked you before...when I turn to the table and take care of it because I am right there, what are you going to do? Run over there and "officially" take care of it? Give me a dirty look and lecture me in the locker room later? What??

that may be what they ask for, but you'll also notice they get annoyed when you communicate the obvious. They don't need a coach's conference to tell them the obvious.

I'm going to ask you why you are doing something which you are not permitted to do BY RULE.

If you have information for the R, provide it to him and let him handle his business.

For the record, I also would not want you correcting the official score or the number of fouls on a player on your own.

There is nothing in the rule book that says I CAN"T fix timing mistakes. And my answer to you when you ask me that question will be "Really? That's what you want to talk about right now?" And then make use of the block feature on Arbiter.

For the record, if one of my partners is right there, I am going to trust him/her to be able to handle things without asking my permission or waving me over there because I have an R next to my name on a sheet of paper.

1. You are wrong. The rule is quite clear in stating that the REFEREE may fix timing errors. Not one single poster on this site would dispute that.

2. You are being stubborn, obstinate, and childish. You insist upon doing this your way rather than how the rules state that it should be handled. Your position is that you are above the rules and don't have to adhere to them when officiating. You cannot defend such a position.

3. I would be pleased if all the officials who refuse to operate by the book and instead administer and call the game however they wish would block me. It would make the games that I work much better.

Actually the R shall correct obvious timing errors. (2-5-5) ;)

So I think we've settled that I should have at least taken my information to the R. Hopefully at that point he would have agreed and then delegated the table chatter to me, thereby meeting his 2-5-5 duty.

Unfortunately in my OP case I think the R would have told me to pack sand. But that's a separate and more philosophical discussion that we've already had.

Keep the discussion (disagreement) civil

I think how this situation is handled largely depends on what is expected in your area/conference.

I know that me, personally, will just fix the error myself...CC or not. No need to waste people's time by making a show of going to my partners and/or going to the crew chief to fix the error. I know if I did that with some people, they'd give me the funny eye, and tell me to fix the damn error myself.

I also know that I don't want to use any "crew chief" powers/influence unless needed. If my other official has knowledge of a clock malfunction, I don't want him to waste time coming to me...then me going to the table to take care of it. I would tell him to go to the table, put the correct amount of time on the clock, and let's go.

This is two-fold...one, it speeds up the process. Two...it can help build up the coaches' confidence w/that partner...especially in a league/conference setting where they might see him/her again. Letting that partner take care of that situation shows the coaches that he's on top of even the little things like the clock.

Well said, APG.

Without trying to be too childish here...you (as the R on the game) are the new L and have taken your position on the endline following a timeout. The throwin is administered by the new T on the far endline. As the ball is being dribbled up the court, the T sounds his/her whistle and loudly calls out "The clock did not start, please take 2 seconds off the clock" and then, once the clock is adjusted, administers another throwin and away we go.

It appears APG and I would be fine with that (as I imagine most of us would). One poster would have us believe that the only way for this to be handled would be for the T and the L to come together and the T tell the R that the clock did not start properly and the the R go to the table and tell them to take 2 seconds off the clock and then everyone go back to their positions and then we can finally get the game going again.

As I said before, the block feature on Arbiter is a wonderful thing. I have absolutely no time nor desire to work with any partner who has that large of a stick up their rectum.

Disagree a little bit with this. In the OP, this was a summer league game, so I'd probably do exactly as you describe in any rec game. But at the higher levels (pro/college), the officials almost always confer with each other and walk over to the table (usually 2 of the 3) to correct rather than shout instructions. I remember Joey Crawford interrupting Durant's FT to yell at the table to correct something, but that is very rare (and probably not how it should be done).

In a HS game, I'd want to get together quickly and confirm what the clock should be set at. If the OP were a NFHS game, I would go to the R and tell him something like: "I had the timeout before the throw-in ended--the clock shouldn't have started. The clock should read [time]."

Everyone is on the same page and you are not rushing. Some of the best advice I've recieved is that when something seems wrong/odd, don't rush to get things moving. Take your time and make sure everything is right.

We are all 'R's'
 

In my college games, 90% of our pregames include something to the effect of, 'we are all R's, if there's an obvious mistake that doesn't require a discussion, take care of it.'

It's the resumption of play/false/multiple penalties that usually require more communication.

But as someone else said, if you're working with a newer official or in an area that has a certainly philosophy about this stuff, go with the 'when in Rome' theory.

The only time I see officials (at the NBA level) get together before a correction to the clock is if there is some doubt as to how much time to put back on the clock.

Otherwise, if you see some error like the shot clock or the clock not starting, the official that notices it isn't going to waste his time going to the CC before to correct the timing mistake...he does that, and it looks like he has to get permission from Mr. Crew Chief to fix a simple mistake.

i guess that was an incorrect perception on my part based on TV coverage (i watch a lot more on TV than I see in person). Although I don't know if the NBA has similar language as NFHS does either.

Stop being obtuse. It is obvious that your ego needs the R next to your name and that your feelings get hurt when you aren't assigned as such. Get over it and follow what the rules book tells you to do.
The rules state that the R corrects any timing errors, so give him the info and let him do so.
At the HS level the timers and scorers aren't always experienced and can easily get confused or intimidated by coaches or spectators into altering something or doing something which they shouldn't. For example, how many times have you seen a HS timer stop the clock on a made basket with only a few seconds remaining? We know that it shouldn't stop, but those TV-watching dad's are all yelling at them to stop the clock. How about the coach who tells them to change Joey's number from 20 to 30?

The fewer people to whom the timer and scorer need listen, the better.
I would much rather be able to tell these people before the game starts that if a problem arises, get my attention, and don't make any change in the time or score without talking to me first. If the officials want you to change something, I'll come over and let you know.
I believe that having a single person designated for this makes direction much clearer to the table crew and has the benefit of keeping the entire crew on the same page. And guess what?--That's how the rules are written.
The NFHS committee has years of experience and decades of trail and error have gone into the crafting of these rules. They have a purpose greater than your fragile ego and you don't know better than all of those people.

Getting The Referee Involved Follows The Intent Of The Rule ...
 

I'm playing devil's advocate here. Does the rule mean that only the referee can make a final decision to correct any timing error, or does it mean that only the referee can communicate that information to the table, or, to really push my devil's advocate point, does it mean that only the referee, not the timer, can physically touch the scoreboard controller, to change the time?

The last is absurd, but I do believe that the is wiggle room in there to allow the referee to make any final timing change decisions, and to allow the umpire to communicate that information to the table.

I'm as rules-based and anyone but I'm not going to get my shorts in a bunch if I'm the R and my U1/U2 makes a correction to the clock. If they saw the problem and have definite knowledge I'll more than likely tell them to make the correction. It won't hurt me to know why they're doing it but the other people out there are big boys/girls. They can explain to the coach(es) what they're doing. If they can't they shouldn't be out there to begin with. If they're not sure about whether the clock should be changed that's a different story.

Heck, one of my Rs in an NCAAW game this past season told me to make a shot-clock/game clock adjustment because I told him I knew how much time should have remained. It's a matter of trust.

The R's I work with pre-game to take care of simple timing problems and keep the game moving.

Not all Crew Chiefs are built the same I guess.

Oh Mr. NevadaRef, you crack me up.

As I said in an earlier post, if I am the R and my partner comes to me with a timing fix, I will look at him/her like they just grew a 3rd eye. They are big boys and girls and can take care of that without my permission. How in the living hell (that you must exist in) that makes me have ego problems (or makes me obtuse) I have no idea. It would appear that the one with the ego issue is the one that demands that all communication with the timer be done by him and him alone.

Meanwhile, in the rest of the known world, officials will continue to handle timing issues when they see them.

This one has run its course.