Ohio State vs VCU (Video 3/3)

[Pantherdreams]

Charge and Block calls on consecutive possessions by Ohio State. Between 6-5 minute mark.

[Sharpshooternes]

5 minutes left in the game defender takes an elbow to the head trying to block a shot. No call at the time but play was stopped for a TO and he was bleeding a lot. Can you all walk me through the administration including differences in college from HS in regards to substitutions with injury, flagrant fouls, etc.

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

5 minutes left in the game defender takes an elbow to the head trying to block a shot. No call at the time but play was stopped for a TO and he was bleeding a lot. Can you all walk me through the administration including differences in college from HS in regards to substitutions with injury, flagrant fouls, etc.

I'll speak to HS. If you call a common (offensive) foul for the elbow then you wipe the basket and give the ball to the fouled team. If you call an INT then you wipe the basket, have the fouled player shoot two free throws, and give the ball to the fouled team at the OOB location nearest where the foul occurred. Same thing if you call a flagrant and you disqualify the fouling player. If you don't call anything then you can't do anything after the fact except deal with the blood.

If you call an INT or Flagrant then you have to deal with the blood before the free throws. The coach can either take a timeout to keep his player in the game to shoot the free throws, or select a sub from the bench who will shoot the free throws. Same is true if you don't call anything and then notice the blood -- timeout to keep the player in the game or immediate sub.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by AremRed

If you call an INT then you wipe the basket, have the fouled player shoot two free throws, and give the ball to the fouled team at the OOB location nearest where the foul occurred.

In the actual game this stem from, the basket was never good, so a moot aspect. However, if I recall the replays correctly, the ball was released before the FF1 (INT in HS) contact. So let's suppose the basket was good. Didn't we have a discussion earlier this season that an intentional foul by an airborne shooter does not negate the basket like a PC foul does?

Provided there was an INT foul called on the floor in HS, I think (sadly, but factually) you'd have to count the basket before marching to the other end to shoot the INT foul FTs.

Not an issue in NCAAM because a foul by an airborne shooter can never be a PC foul; score the basket regardless. But what about NCAAW? Do you treat a FF1 on this play the same way you do an INT in HS, i.e. the basket is good even though had it been a PC foul it wouldn't have been?

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

In the actual game this stem from, the basket was never good, so a moot aspect. However, if I recall the replays correctly, the ball was released before the FF1 (INT in HS) contact. So let's suppose the basket was good. Didn't we have a discussion earlier this season that an intentional foul by an airborne shooter does not negate the basket like a PC foul does?

Provided there was an INT foul called on the floor in HS, I think (sadly, but factually) you'd have to count the basket before marching to the other end to shoot the INT foul FTs.

Not an issue in NCAAM because a foul by an airborne shooter can never be a PC foul; score the basket regardless. But what about NCAAW? Do you treat a FF1 on this play the same way you do an INT in HS, i.e. the basket is good even though had it been a PC foul it wouldn't have been?

Brain fart. Foul was on the offense. Causes the ball to become dead immediately. Duh.

Now had the ball entered the basket first somehow, and then the foul by the airborne shooter, now what do you have under the various rule sets?

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

In the actual game this stem from, the basket was never good, so a moot aspect. However, if I recall the replays correctly, the ball was released before the FF1 (INT in HS) contact. So let's suppose the basket was good. Didn't we have a discussion earlier this season that an intentional foul by an airborne shooter does not negate the basket like a PC foul does?

Provided there was an INT foul called on the floor in HS, I think (sadly, but factually) you'd have to count the basket before marching to the other end to shoot the INT foul FTs.

Under the HS ruleset which I limited my response to (and said so), the ball is dead immediately upon any player control foul. So unless the elbow happened after the ball passed through the basket I would wave it off.

[MechanicGuy]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Uh, the VCU player did make the layup on the player where he elbowed the OSU defender. And under the HS ruleset which I limited my response to (and said so), the ball is dead immediately upon any player control foul. So unless the elbow happened after the ball passed through the basket I would wave it off.

Nope.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Under the HS ruleset which I limited my response to (and said so), the ball is dead immediately upon any player control foul. So unless the elbow happened after the ball passed through the basket I would wave it off.

Your first response was incorrect and so is your follow-up.
Under NFHS rules a player control foul MUST be a common foul. An intentional personal foul is not a common foul. Therefore, if the try is already released at the time of the intentional foul by the airborne shooter, then the basket would count.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

5 minutes left in the game defender takes an elbow to the head trying to block a shot. No call at the time but play was stopped for a TO and he was bleeding a lot. Can you all walk me through the administration including differences in college from HS in regards to substitutions with injury, flagrant fouls, etc.

Your question is too broad, what specific type of play do you want to know about?

[Raymond]

#1) Beautiful mechanics and patience by the officials involved. PC was the right call.

#2) Good movement by the Lead to see the play. 50/50

#3) I could be talked into a FF1 upon review. Or live with the no-call.

[APG]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

#1) Beautiful mechanics and patience by the officials involved. PC was the right call.

#2) Good movement by the Lead to see the play. 50/50

#3) I could be talked into a FF1 upon review. Or live with the no-call.

On point 1, the announcers wailed that one of the officials was about to call a block...the slot never looked like he was close to going block and simply had a fist in the air. Great mechanics to hold.

One point 3, the officials went to review and assessed a FF1

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

...

#3) I could be talked into a FF1 upon review. Or live with the no-call.

Originally Posted by APG

...

One point 3, the officials went to review and assessed a FF1

Damn it, how am I not in the tournament?

[HokiePaul]

Both plays were very close and hard to argue either way. My initial thought in real time though, was that I'd have had them flipped. The first one looked like a block to me as the defender moved into the airborn shooter. The second one looked like a charge as the defender established LGP.

Good mechanics by the officials in both though, especially on the first play double whistle. I also bet that had the first call been a block, the official would have gone PC on the second. I think the officials recognized both plays as 50/50 calls and was aware enough to avoid doubling up on back to back 50/50 calls.

On the 3rd one, the official obviously saw the play well enough to not penalize the defense. I'm guessing that he saw some of the push off by the offensive player, but didn't realize how severe the contact was at the time.

I agree, lots of good plays in the 6-4 minute range. Three block/charge plays, an elbow play, and some smart commentary from Dan Bonner. He explained the LGP rule pretty accurately.