Controversial end to Oregon Tournament Game
 

Saw this come up in my twitter feed, This happened in an Oregon tournament game. The call be the officials was no good. Watch said video and tell me what you think. Ignore comments after the story.

http://highschoolsports.oregonlive.c...mas-game-poll/

Shot looks good to me.

http://highschoolsports.oregonlive.c...oss-to-jesuit/

the cell phone video appears to show the shot released before the buzzer. does anyone see the clock? I wonder if that was right.

I have no problem with overturning these type of calls if the video evidence is clear. Let's move forward to the 21st century people!

That video doesn't show anything. Neither the ball nor the shooter's hand is even in the video at the time of interest. The clock also isn't visible. All you can tell from that video is that the horn sounded sometime after the ball and the shooter's hand exited the top of the video frame. It is also very hard to tell when exactly the horn started sounding.

I had just worked the team in white in the prior round on Tuesday night. It wasn't such a close game. Then I worked this same school's girls team the day after the game in question. Some of the staff at the game that day told me about it and said they thought the shot should have counted.

Glad I wasn't on that game.....and it seems it was 2-man too

Yikes. That's a long way to go for the trail to make that call, no?

It was, but 3-person really wouldn't have helped if the last shot belongs to the official opposite the table as is the case in some mechanics systems, including NFHS. It would have still been on the trial and he would have still been coming from as far away.

Instead, the T, coming from so far away, should have obtained input from the Lead (or both the Lead and Center if it had been a 3-person game) rather than make the call on the run.

I think it would be better on short-clock situations starting in the backcourt for L to take it (or the C in a 3 person game) regardless of which side of the court they are on. The C, in a 3-person game, is a lot more likely to be in a good position to make the call on such length-of-court plays.

True, but if the goal is more information, a 3rd official (C) would have the best idea on this play, just by virtue of being within 50 feet of the play lol.

It's sad that anyone would try to defend 2-man as anything but the dinosaur that it is.

Who's to say that in a 3-man game that wouldn't have been the C opposite?

I agree that 3-person may have improved the odds of getting the call right in many games (and we do need 3-person on these). However, the location of the throw-in in the backcourt would have still had the T opposite....so it still would have been the T's call. The T would have had to ask for input on the call....something he could have done in 2-person too. If it is his call (it was and would have been with 3-person too) and he sells the call without asking for help, what could the C do?

That would depend upon which official is the R.

This is a play that deserves a sell job.

If the shot is not going to count we should be hearing a whistle from the Trail BEFORE the ball is going through the hoop.

A. Totally disagree with your first statement.
B. While your second statement is the proper procedure, it would be hard to blow the whistle at that point in this video since the horn hadn't sounded yet.

If a shot is not going to count, the ball should still be in the player's hand or just released, when the whistle sounds. The first whistle to disallow a shot shouldn't come after the ball has gone through the basket.

Give a solid whistle at the time the horn goes, then mark the position of the ball on the whistle. I have a problem when partners don't give a whistle on a last second shot until the shot is over (missed or made), as it gives the appearance that an official could be making the decision (count it/don't count it) at the time the shot is made.

Anything close like this play, why would you NOT get with your partner or partners?? What are the negatives in doing so? To me, it only looks better when the crew comes together and at least gives the appearance that the call made was in agreement with the crew.

As I've posted in the past...this situation illustrates the need for a specific mechanic to end a period (at least for HS). Nowhere in the FED rule book, case book, or Officials' Manual does it indicate how a whistle should be used to end the period. Thus, everybody does it differently. There is no consistency among states, associations...sometimes no consistency within a crew. Debates occur every year as one of these tight games always seems to happen near the end of the season. Video replay is addressed for state tournaments...but not the use of the whistle. Always find that curious.

The whistle should be blown at the end of the quarter. However the quarter doesn't end until a shot attempt ends. While the ball is in the air there shouldn't be a whistle. Blowing it at the sound of the horn is not correct. Rule 6.7.5 exception a.

Rule citation?

You need a rule to tell you when to blow a whistle?

No...just a justification, based on a written rule.

I agree that the FED has not established an official way to end a quarter. However, (Rule 1.14) "...... the audible timer's signal shall indicate that time has expired." I am not saying the whistle automatically ends the quarter or ends a try for goal if the shot is in the air. Putting a whistle to the audible signal/horn gives that official, as well as everyone in the gym, a reference as to where the ball is at that point. How would you ever get in trouble by putting a whistle to the scoreboard's horn at the end of a quarter?

In the OP, the T's whistle is a full second after the horn. Had he put a whistle on the horn, it may have helped him establish the fact that the ball was out of the shooter's hand at the time the horn sounded.

Agreed that if that shot was after the horn the whistle should have been blown a lot sooner. Also, it would be an ideal time to sell it (see other thread). The video didn't instill confidence that the shot was late. However, based upon the single clip I can't tell if it was after the horn or not.

Agree. Agree...video(s) inconclusive.

I'm not putting whistle on the play until it is dead. That means immediately if the ball is still in the shooter's hand when time expires. A legal shot in mid-flight is not getting a whistle from me. I will hit my whistle the shot goes through the basket or when it is obvious that the shot is no good.

Me, too.

And, fwiw, this specific procedure is in the NCAW CCA manual.

Agree 100%.

The Sounds Of Silence (Simon & Garfunkel, 1964) ...
 

Our local guys have been instructed not to sound the whistle to end a period, unless something "weird" happens to end the period (foul right before horn, shot not released before horn sounds, horn doesn't sound with all zeros, etc.)

I don't believe that there is anything in the NFHS Rulebook that states that an official shall sound his whistle at the end of a period. I don't believe that there's anything in the IAABO Mechanics Manual that that states that an official shall sound his whistle at the end of a period. I don't have access to a NFHS Mechanics Manual, but I would like to know what it states. A little help please ...

With the way they want us here to limit the number of unnecessary whistles, ie don't whistle subs in(unless timer is asleep), I don't see the need to whistle the end of the period either when its obvious that the whistle isnt needed.

100% correct as there could be a rebounding foul while the ball is still live during the try. If IUgrad has already blown his whistle, people are going to ask what his whistle was for and how does that impact the subsequent foul call.

Is this for real?

Do not get me wrong, there but for the grace of God go all of us into a pickle like this, but nothing about the second video is inconclusive.

Really nothing inconclusive about the first either (unless you are hearing-impaired) as the ball is already coming through the net when the horn sounds.

6A playoffs and they're still doing 2 man? That's a disgrace

Since the clock is not visible in either video, perhaps the T observed it not starting properly and used his visible count (good mechanic by him, especially since a 10-second count was not in play) to measure the remaining time rather than blow a frantic final play dead in mid-dribble/pass/shot.

So when/if THAT time ran out, he blew it dead, albeit uncomfortably late, given that it came well after the horn.

I guess the video is inconclusive after all. Apologies for popping off 2 posts earlier. What is not inconclusive is whether the release of the shot beat the horn.

Whether that horn signaled the end of a final sequence that began with a proper start we will likely never know, since video of such would surely have surfaced by now.

And all easily explainable to any coach Nevada, IF it were to get to that point. You are giving hypotheticals and I'm dealing with the play at hand. I personally did not 'make up' the mechanic I use for end of quarters, rather came from veteran HS, state level officials that I had as mentors when I first started. I'm not saying to anyone they have to do it my way, I'm just throwing it out there as an option, something to think about, maybe something to try.

IMO, had the T in the OP attempted to put a whistle to the horn, it could have possibly forced his cognitive side to come to the correct conclusion that the ball was clearly out of the shooter's hand at the time the horn sounded. Rather, it looks like perhaps he used the technique as espoused by you and BNR, which is completely fine. However, the end result for the T, at least in this particular circumstance, is that he got it wrong.

IUGrad if that is what is done in your area, then by all means blow your whistle when the horn goes. There is not one person that has replied that agrees with that "mechanic" as all it does is add confusion. The only time your whistle should coincide with the horn nm is if you are blowing the shot dead, otherwise, as has been stated previously, your whistle should not come until the try is good or is obvious it will be missed.

As I believe it was stated earlier, the FED has not come forth with how a whistle should end a quarter, so what you state is your opinion for HS ball and I agree we all need to try to do things as they are done in our own respective areas.

I can just tell you that in 18+ years I have not had one case of added confusion. If anything it has only added clarity, as I've been a part of my fair share of 'buzzer beaters'/shots taken close to the horn, and I have never left the court with the confusion I see in the OP or with a coach still wondering why I counted the basket or why I waved it off. It just simply has never happened.

You have every right to add conjecture as to what 'might' happen with my "mechanic", but at the same time, I can give actual testimony of 18+ years of using it.

Maybe you would be willing to put your two cents as to why there was so much confusion at the end of this OP video and if you think it was the correct call?

Just to be clear, if the ball leaves the shooter's hand before the horn sounds, you blow your whistle immediately when the horn sounds? As others have said, if that is acceptable in your area, do what works for you.

But I would encourage other readers here to NOT do that. I've worked in multiple states and multiple organizations and this would not be seen as an acceptable mechanic in any of them. I do not see any benefit from using this mechanic but see significant room for argument, questioning and confusion.

My approach is similar to BNR - if the ball is in the shooters hand at time of horn, blow the whistle immediately. If the ball has been released before the horn, wait until the ball has gone in or is clearly unsuccessful. Then blow the whistle. This is the expected mechanic everywhere I have worked.

There will always be the possibility of argument, but no one is confused by this sequence. Even in the video: No one is confused about the ruling; they question the accuracy of the call

We do it here the same as jpgc99 has described. I couldn't imagine hitting my whistle while a shot that would be counted is still in flight.

So as an "off" official, you're not calling a foul off-ball (ie. hitting your whistle) while a shot is in flight? Of course you would because the whistle does not make the ball dead. Same philosophy applies my friend.....

The calling official in the OP did exactly as you prescribe and got the play wrong. All I am saying is that my "mechanic" may perhaps enhance and increase the probability of getting it right. Could you not conclude that the philosophy/technique/mechanic that the calling official used, did not work in this particular play, and in turn added confusion??

Yes, because it adds clarity for me as to the location of ball at the time I blow my whistle. I believe it enhances cognitive awareness to what needs absolute attention, the location of the ball at the time the horn sounds. The mechanics I have chosen to use over the past 18+ years are for one reason only, to put myself in the best situation possible to get the play correct and I believe this particular one has never let me down and it has never left a coach (winning or losing) in a state of confusion.

The calling official waited a full second, if not longer, to blow his whistle after the horn, try for goal was over, and still waves it off??

Now THAT is added confusion....

You're correct. I'm in my office and watched on mute. Blowing the whistle that late does add confusion. My mistake in reference to the video.

However, where the ball is when you blow your whistle has absolutely no bearing on the play. All that matters is the status of the ball when time expires. Your whistle is after the expiration of time so it really doesn't help you pinpoint the proper time.

The best practice is to have a mental count so that you are not caught off guard and can know where the ball is at the exact time of expiration. I always keep a mental count so that I am not surprised by the horn. In reality, I think your focus on blowing the whistle helps you because it keeps you focused on not being surprised by the horn. If that works for you, great. But from my experience this is not a mechanic that would be approved in many places. When in Rome...

Another When In Rome Situation ???
 

And by that, are you talking about a rookie official observing you and comparing what you do on the court with what he is supposed to do according to the NFHS (or IAABO) Mechanics Manual he has in his hands?

Or, if this is another one of those "When in Rome" things, and if that's the case, then, by all means, continue doing it.

That's why I mentioned this is an earlier post.....
(Rule 1.14) "...... the audible timer's signal (i.e. horn) shall indicate that time has expired."

And it does help you pinpoint proper time, as long as you have reasonable time/end of quarter awareness. I've been doing it for many, many years, so I can only speak for my experience. Saying "it doesn't help you" is based on....................??

I thought it was said earlier in this thread by someone else that there is NO reference on how a whistle should be used to end a quarter. Nothing in the rule book, case book, or official's manual. Are you saying that you have something different from NFHS in this regard?

Doing it my way I've never had confusion either, so the early whistle procedure would have absolutely zero value added and only causes confusion in the places I work. I've done quite a few games where a partner blew the whistle while the shot was in the air and clearly released before time expired, and everyone thought that meant they were waving off the shot.

And there was no confusion in the OP, everyone knew he waved off the basket. Your procedure actually has absolutely nothing to do with what happened in the video.

Follow up video
 

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Nice video but it doesn't show whether the clock started on time. If there was any lag I would imagine that the ball was still in the players hand.

Sorry I did not read all the comments.
 

I cannot tell anything by the video.

I did not read all the comments but if I am waiving off the basket, I am not taking my time. I am waving it off immediately and I am going towards the table. I am not watching the ball go through the hole.

Man that was close and I am glad it was not me with that lack of video evidence. Still some games to go and now I am scared. ;)

Peace

Did you guys watch the video that was posted in the comments on the original article? It is shot from behind the black team's bench and it shows the shot clearly should have counted.

I'm assuming 6A is one of Oregon's biggest classes, and this is a state playoff game? Unbelievable that you would still have 2-person crews at that point in the season. In Missouri, even the smallest classes use 3-person crews from the district tournaments all the way to the state finals.

If your officials have been working 2-person crews all season, I fail to see how adding a third in the playoffs is helpful.

There is absolute confusion as the whistle and wave off were after the ball when through the basket. If he was waving it off from the get go, should we not have been hearing a whistle a little sooner? That is where the confusion comes in. To be honest, I don't think there is much dispute that the ball was out of the shooter's hand when the horn sounds.

A whistle while the ball is in the air, whether at the end of a quarter or on an off-ball foul during the game, mean the exact same thing. Some understand that, others don't, that's not a surprise. Just because 'everyone' thinks something, doesn't really matter does it.

The fact that you cannot connect the dots with what I'm saying and how it relates to the OP, doesn't mean it's not there. It just means you don't see it, and frankly I'm not surprised.

And for the record, I've never once said that my method is best or the only way to handle things. It is only how I handle this situation, and that it has been very effective for me. I have only offered up a suggestion, something to consider, maybe try it in a lower level game and make a decision from there, or maybe just disregard it altogether, whatever..... Everyone here is a big person and can make there own decision and judgment on what's best for him/her.

There are officials out there, and I've worked with many, that have the mechanic of not having a whistle at all to end a quarter.The fact is the FED has not spelled out a standard mechanic or procedure for a whistle end of quarters, so I don't see where anyone, especially here, has absolute authority to say what is the correct mechanic/procedure and what isn't.

My very first post in this thread said if you are waving off a shot, then you have to wave it off while still in A1's hand, or immediately after the release, not after the ball is through the basket.

But that has absolutely nothing to do with blowing the whistle while a legal try is still in flight. Those whistles always cause confusion in games I've worked.

And I was only stating what my method is and why I do it that way. Your post was only a reference point, and not a personal affront to you.

Well when my state added 3 person for the playoffs almost 20 years ago, this allowed the conferences to go to 3 person full time. And no one is considering going backwards. There are a couple of conferences that still use 2 person, but they do not get a lot of the better officials or officials that work better conferences. So maybe a policy will change the overall practice of those that do the regular season assigning.

Peace

Agreed. I can't imagine any good coming from blowing my whistle while a live ball is in flight here. I'll blow my whistle when the quarter is over, and not before. Some may do it the way IUgrad92 does, but I can't imagine this being something someone should have a problem with, either way.

True, it's a way to start transitioning into a 3-person system. If it goes on for more than a couple of years, though, it's no longer a transitional adjustment.

I'm the the association that normally has both of those schools (along with Camron) and the next day I had a playoff game in the same area as the winning school.

Our assigner dropped by our locker room at halftime of our playoff game just to say hi and give us a couple of observations. I asked him if he had seen the video and he stated he only looked at it briefly as he had been travelling between several of our smaller classification tournaments last weekend. He thought the shot was off before the horn...

The officials in this game weren't from our association, but from another one down south. I asked if he had any blowback from the call and he stated he hadn't, but he was sure glad the two officials weren't from our association as he'd be dealing with a lot of grief from various parties if they were!

There has been some talk of Oregon going to 3 man (finally) in the next couple of years, but I'll believe it when I see it.

In my area we do a mix of two and three person during the regular season. One of the main factors is the lack of officials. For playoffs in Michigan everything is three person. Personally I think that 3 person provides a better product regardless of what is used during the year.

The second video leaves no doubt - at least as it relates to the horn.

Sorry I should have said not hitting my whistle to signal the end of the period, when the ball is released in time, until after it is clear the shot is good or not. Of course I would whistle to signal a foul but I'm guessing you knew that already.

3 vs 2
 

I know that some of this discussion has gone the way of 3 vs. 2. In my state ( GO TERPS ), we go to 3 for the play offs, as you get deeper into the playoffs, you start to see some consistency regarding the officiating. However the first two rounds can be a joke. They are paying for an extra set of eyes to ball watch and miss rotations. We should just stick to two man ( regular season is done two man ) for the first two rounds.

Fred Barakat once told a story at his camp where Dean Smith told him we aren't paying $500 for another set of eyes to ball watch. It seems that the same thing is true in a lot of hs basketball....

It is if they haven't done 3 all year. If you make the first two rounds 2 man as well, then you'll have that problem in the latter rounds instead.

Unless those that get the latter rounds typically have other 3 person experience that those getting to the first rounds don't have.

Same thing applies (mostly) in Massachusetts. Two-person crews for most high school games all season.

But, for the post-season tournament, all games are three person. College officials are the only ones with significant three-person experience. Most tournament crews have at least one college person, but not all. But, for later round games, all-college crews are much more common. Some will say they are the better officials and should get the late round games, but I know several very good high school only officials who are not able to get late round games because they are inexperienced in the three person mechanics.

Through the years, these officials build up experience...but it is not the same as a regular season of 3-person mechanics.

Game video... no real help.
 

Just posted a couple of days ago. big chunks of the game missing at the end. no real help.

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People who work only (or mostly) college games should not swoop in and take the HS tournament games from people who work a bulk of the regular season.

How do you define "mostly"? Just b/c an official works more HS than college shouldn't eliminate him from HS post season assignments.

Devil's in the details, isn't it?

That is why our organization and the state has, in part, a minimum number of HS varsity games required in order to be eligible for post season games. It isn't a difficult number....you can get over it with one game per week. A person could even work more college then HS and still qualify, but they have to give more than just a token number of games to be eligible.