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bas2456 Mon Mar 09, 2015 09:20pm

Selling Calls
 
Wondering if you agree with this notion or not:

"If you have to sell the call, you probably didn't get the call right"

That's a direct quote from a GSL softball officiating newsletter-ish thing. But the notion applies to all sports.

So in basketball, do you think that notion is true?

Raymond Mon Mar 09, 2015 09:28pm

Well, John Adams has specifically said to sell the call when a foul occurs before the shooting motion has started.

I think it is good to sell a call also when you make a call outside of your primary.

JRutledge Mon Mar 09, 2015 09:45pm

Well that is softball. Those guys/gals are robots. That does not apply very well in basketball. You have to stop play with your whistle unlike what goes on in softball.

A little different standard if you ask me.

Peace

AremRed Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:15pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bas2456 (Post 957409)
Wondering if you agree with this notion or not:

"If you have to sell the call, you probably didn't get the call right"

That's a direct quote from a GSL softball officiating newsletter-ish thing. But the notion applies to all sports.

So in basketball, do you think that notion is true?

That notion is totally false. Not every action that warrants a call is the obvious kind that everyone in the gym can see. What do you do for those not-so-obvious ones?

Freddy Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:43pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 957413)
That notion is totally false. Not every action that warrants a call is the obvious kind that everyone in the gym can see. What do you do for those not-so-obvious ones?

When an official at lead sells the heck out of his block/charge call by banging his fists against and thrusting his hips repeatedly like a rooster chicken having $e% on the court, that typically means he didn't see the legal guarding position of the secondary defender because he was ballwatching and focusing on the dribbler instead of the defender and had to try to overcome the fact that he missed it, had to guess, and therefore defaulted to a block.
OK, not always. But a lot.
Other than that poor excuse for having to sell a call, I deem that there are times when selling a call is genuinely necessary and correct. Not to draw undue attention to the official, but to convey confidence and certainty on a call that, to the untrained eye of a subjective fan, could have gone the other way.

AremRed Tue Mar 10, 2015 12:16am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 957420)
When an official at lead sells the heck out of his block/charge call by banging his fists against and thrusting his hips repeatedly like a rooster chicken having $e% on the court, that typically means he didn't see the legal guarding position of the secondary defender because he was ballwatching and focusing on the dribbler instead of the defender and had to try to overcome the fact that he missed it, had to guess, and therefore defaulted to a block.

Damn Freddy, tell us how you really feel. :D

MechanicGuy Tue Mar 10, 2015 12:56am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 957420)
When an official at lead sells the heck out of his block/charge call by banging his fists against and thrusting his hips repeatedly like a rooster chicken having $e% on the court, that typically means he didn't see the legal guarding position of the secondary defender because he was ballwatching and focusing on the dribbler instead of the defender and had to try to overcome the fact that he missed it, had to guess, and therefore defaulted to a block.
OK, not always. But a lot.
Other than that poor excuse for having to sell a call, I deem that there are times when selling a call is genuinely necessary and correct. Not to draw undue attention to the official, but to convey confidence and certainty on a call that, to the untrained eye of a subjective fan, could have gone the other way.

Solid logic, lol.

I agree with the second part of your post though.

Selling a call, to me, is merely projecting confidence in said call. I see younger/newer officials make the right call with poor sell jobs and it makes everyone in the gym question the call.

Rich Tue Mar 10, 2015 01:17am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 957420)
When an official at lead sells the heck out of his block/charge call by banging his fists against and thrusting his hips repeatedly like a rooster chicken having $e% on the court, that typically means he didn't see the legal guarding position of the secondary defender because he was ballwatching and focusing on the dribbler instead of the defender and had to try to overcome the fact that he missed it, had to guess, and therefore defaulted to a block.
OK, not always. But a lot.
Other than that poor excuse for having to sell a call, I deem that there are times when selling a call is genuinely necessary and correct. Not to draw undue attention to the official, but to convey confidence and certainty on a call that, to the untrained eye of a subjective fan, could have gone the other way.

When an official gently puts his hands on his hips, it doesn't give me much confidence, either.

Rob1968 Tue Mar 10, 2015 02:10am

In sales, there is what one might call, an "assumed close." For example, "Would you like to pay for that with cash or a credit card?" In such a case, the sale person presents, in a simple and confident way, the request for the exchange of goods/services for payment, without asking if the buyer has decided to buy the item/service.

Often, in officiating, when an official is sure of the call, and that most of the interested parties can see and understand the call, no "selling" is needed - just the appropriate signals. And, in fact, to sell such a call, may be interpreted as an attempt to convince oneself and any observers, that he/she got the call right. Indeed, to "oversell" a call, or to oversell the obvious calls, can lead to less confidence in the observers, regarding the competence and confidence of the official. It may be likened to the "little boy who cried wolf" situation.

I use three variants of the NFHS PC foul signal, in a block/charge call. The obvious nature of such a call, determines which method I use. And, I am most emphatic in expressing (selling) either the block signal, or the charge/PC signal, when I sense that the offended player needs to know that he/she is rewarded, so as to allay any feelings they may be showing, that they need to retaliate.

A calm, confident presentation of the correct signals, most often demonstrates to the coaches, players and fans, that the official has "been there, seen that, before."

Recently, as I reported a block call against his player, that my partner couldn't see, he being straight-lined, the coach asked, "Hey Rob, have you ever been wrong on a call?" I answered, with a smile, "Well, once I thought I might have been wrong, but when we reviewed the video, I was mistaken!" We both chuckled, and the game continued.

Bad Zebra Tue Mar 10, 2015 07:02am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bas2456 (Post 957409)
Wondering if you agree with this notion or not:

"If you have to sell the call, you probably didn't get the call right"

That's a direct quote from a GSL softball officiating newsletter-ish thing. But the notion applies to all sports.

So in basketball, do you think that notion is true?

Who is the author of the article? It doesn't sound like something an official would write.

bob jenkins Tue Mar 10, 2015 07:02am

I agree with Rob that sometimes you can "sell" a call by underselling it.

and, can we get rid of that annoying repeating gif.

Nevadaref Tue Mar 10, 2015 07:41am

There is nothing wrong with exhibiting confidence and strength with mechanics when making a call, but I don't believe in the need to "sell" any decision.
Why not?
1. No one is buying anyway. The supporters, players, and coaching staff of the team that the decision goes against isn't going to be happy about it no matter what antics are displayed when presenting the call.
2. Officials don't change calls anyway. Whatever was decided is what the call is, barring video replay which is now becoming used with more frequency. Recently, I've found it rather amusing to watch pro baseball or college football on TV and observe an official emphatically making a call, which video replay shows to be incorrect! So what purpose did the hard "sell" serve? It didn't make the official correct.

zm1283 Tue Mar 10, 2015 09:41am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bas2456 (Post 957409)
Wondering if you agree with this notion or not:

"If you have to sell the call, you probably didn't get the call right"

That's a direct quote from a GSL softball officiating newsletter-ish thing. But the notion applies to all sports.

So in basketball, do you think that notion is true?

There is the problem in all of this.

Lesson: Don't listen to what softball does. They do all kinds of silly business.

JRutledge Tue Mar 10, 2015 09:47am

I think we overuse the term "sell" anyway. Most of the time I am just making a signal and if the call is close I might be more emphatic about the call if it is something not easily seen or understood. For example if there is a block/charge play but there was something that took place before that contact, I might be more demonstrative about the first contact that not everyone is paying as close attention to. If it is a normal shooting foul that is near the basket, it is another day in the park and a regular call and everyone understands why you are blowing the whistle. And I do feel that participants often know you are making a call more adamant because you are making it clear what you saw. And selling a call is not always being demonstrative. It might be moving closer to the play or doing so that your partners see you have something and back off what they are about to call.

Peace

Rich Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:07am

You don't have to hop around like a frog or bang your hips six times to sell a call.

just another ref Tue Mar 10, 2015 11:17am

I don't see a need to sell anything. Rather, I think it is best to keep the same demeanor on every call. Obviously, this is more animated for some than others. Personally, I like to keep a low profile with signals .

Rich Tue Mar 10, 2015 11:33am

A close block/charge. One is going to emphasize that decision differently than a routine out of bounds call.

Like it or not, that's selling the call.

BillyMac Tue Mar 10, 2015 03:36pm

Confidence ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 957484)
A close block/charge. One is going to emphasize that decision differently than a routine out of bounds call. Like it or not, that's selling the call.

I'm not sure that there really is a good bad call, but my former local interpreter used to say that "The best bad call is a strong bad call". I believe that he meant that if an official is always making confident calls, signals, voice, posture, etc., that he may be able to get away with an occasional bad call that a wishy washy signal, voice, or posture, wouldn't get away with.

Raymond Tue Mar 10, 2015 08:29pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 957505)
I'm not sure that there really is a good bad call, but my former local interpreter used to say that "The best bad call is a strong bad call". I believe that he meant that if an official is always making confident calls, signals, voice, posture, etc., that he may be able to get away with an occasional bad call that a wishy washy signal, voice, or posture, wouldn't get away with.

I ascribe to that also. When you make a questionable call, display and report it with the same confidence as your best call.

Lcubed48 Tue Mar 10, 2015 09:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bas2456 (Post 957409)
Wondering if you agree with this notion or not:

"If you have to sell the call, you probably didn't get the call right"

That's a direct quote from a GSL softball officiating newsletter-ish thing. But the notion applies to all sports.

So in basketball, do you think that notion is true?

I also umpire softball, and I must respectively disagree with that statement. I don't see any difference - a close play (block/charge - safe/out) is a close play, and it may need to be sold.

constable Wed Mar 11, 2015 10:58am

Certain calls need to be sold. A close block/charge is the first thing that comes to mind. Selling a call every so often helps convey conviction. I have seen officials in a b/c situation call it as if it was a routine oob call and coaches eat them up. Selling the occasional call lets everyone know you had it and had it all the way.

I also do baseball so this softball logic baffles me.... a banger at first base, a tag at the plate often need to be sold.

KCRC Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:14am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 957448)
Recently, I've found it rather amusing to watch pro baseball or college football on TV and observe an official emphatically making a call, which video replay shows to be incorrect! So what purpose did the hard "sell" serve? It didn't make the official correct.

See "sold" OOB call reversed by monitor review with 8 seconds left in 2nd half of South Dakota St - North Dakota St. Summit League Championship Game last night (ESPN2).

Rob1968 Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:34am

NFHS Officials Manual 2.5.1 D. Officials should be professional in the use of the signals and should not attempt to draw attention to themselves by use of unapproved, enphatic or theatrical signals. (italics added)

Dear Mr. Crawford, . . . oh, never mind . . .

AremRed Wed Mar 11, 2015 01:01pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob1968 (Post 957555)
NFHS Officials Manual 2.5.1 D. Officials should be professional in the use of the signals and should not attempt to draw attention to themselves by use of unapproved, enphatic or theatrical signals. (italics added)

Dear Mr. Crawford, . . . oh, never mind . . .

I doubt he referees under NFHS rules very often.

Raymond Wed Mar 11, 2015 01:10pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob1968 (Post 957555)
NFHS Officials Manual 2.5.1 D. Officials should be professional in the use of the signals and should not attempt to draw attention to themselves by use of unapproved, enphatic or theatrical signals. (italics added)

Dear Mr. Crawford, . . . oh, never mind . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 957558)
I doubt he referees under NFHS rules very often.

I have been around Joey C and Teddy V multiple times. First thing they'll tell young officials is, "you cannot do what I do".

Rich Wed Mar 11, 2015 01:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 957505)
I'm not sure that there really is a good bad call, but my former local interpreter used to say that "The best bad call is a strong bad call". I believe that he meant that if an official is always making confident calls, signals, voice, posture, etc., that he may be able to get away with an occasional bad call that a wishy washy signal, voice, or posture, wouldn't get away with.

A wishy-washy 100% correct call can lead people to have doubt, too.

BillyMac Wed Mar 11, 2015 03:50pm

The Two C's ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 957561)
A wishy-washy 100% correct call can lead people to have doubt, too.

Good point. It's all about confidence, and consistency.

Kansas Ref Thu Mar 12, 2015 03:33pm

One of my ref partners does the "Push" signal/mechanic several times per incident to emphasize/sell the call. Sort of looks like a dance move as she demonstratively does the open handed push movement 3 or 4 times in rapid succession at the spot of the foul--but only once when reporting tableside. I just do one emphatic "open handed" push signal. Yet, she does what she does--evryone seems to get the point.


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