Block/Charge/No Call? (Video)
 

Thoughts??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1dmmEbW03A

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the first play in the video is a good no call…as for the dunk off of the steal….well, that is absolutely NOT a block (as the official called). By rule, that is an obvious PC foul - whether it gets called or not is another matter.

What is definite is that there should have been a T for taunting after the dunk.

Wow, what a sequence. First play looks like a block, count the bucket.

The second looks like a PC if anything, I'm leaning towards no call on that one since the defender is bailing out which minimized the actual contact that occurred. Defender definitely establishes LGP. Also would consider a taunting T after the dunk.\

Also notice that the C has completely bailed on the first play. He is higher than the T and doesn't come back to help on the press either.

I have no call, followed by no call (would have been pc but him falling early made contact minimal)l, followed by a T for taunting. I would reconsider the T if I had a different angle that showed something different. From this angle it appears to be a taunt.

Potential block on the first call but I'd likely pass.

PC on the second situation. Defender had position in time. It might be OK to no call, but it isn't a block...too many feel that have to call something here and just find it easier to just go with a block regardless of the rules. :rolleyes:

Thirty seconds left in a close game. I wouldn't want to call a technical in that situation - I'm not saying it would be an incorrect call, but if it was the first time all game, I would prefer to remind him to knock it off when he first starts taunting.

I don't care if there's 1 second left and he just tied the game with the dunk, that's a T every time, IMO. If you've been letting this go all game, then sure, don't make it for the first time now. But I'm guessing he hasn't done this the rest of the game so you don't have to worry about what you've been letting go.

This reminds me of a play I had last year. Partner calls a foul on V player on a made bucket with 12 seconds to go. This bucket tied the game. V player turns his back to my partner (I'm in the C partner was L) and said that's BS. I T'ed him. His coach told me that was a huge call in the situation and I told the coach all the more reason for him to retain his composure.

The first play is a 50-50 situation. I am leaning toward a charge but the L really had the best look at it and in my opinion there was a foul either a block or charge. The second one was a major charge and the L just flat out missed it.

MTD, Sr.

speaking from the FIBA rule set:

1st play - I have no foul on this play.

2nd play - the defender would be awfully close to being inside the no-charge semi-circle so if he were a call on the offense would be incorrect, wouldn't call a block on the defender as he did have LGP just not completely outside the no-charge semi-circle. Assuming the defender was completely outside the no-charge area I see the defender establishing LGP before the offense is airborne so a charge would be the call I'd make.

3rd play - End of a close game and an exciting play where everyone is amped up. I'm probably not going to T this unless there have been issues prior to this time in the game. I'd say something to the player for sure about sportsmanship but I'm unlikely to T the player for the emotional reaction to a high intensity play.

There is not RA in the 2nd Play. And I forgot the taunting foul that was not called.

And yes there was a foul in the 1st Play either a block or a charge.

MTD, Sr.

anyone see that steal. that was a really slick play.

no call on the first. just some incidental contact, let it go. Too many refs call something there when there is no reason to call a foul.

No call on the second. As for the possible T....hmm. I'd say no for the reasons mentioned by Alberta above but that is very close. That one could go either way.

Nice video!

I've got no calls on both, but that's probably the most obvious taunting T ever. This is why you DON'T LEAVE THE SCENE OF THE FOUL EARLY. Shame on all of you guys saying it's too late in the game or to close of a game to call a T. It's never too late to enforce good sportsmanship.

30 seconds left in the game and the offending team is up 70-61, it's a no-brainer for me. What good is a reminder at this point?

No call.

PC.

T for taunting.

Hard to believe anyone would pass on that taunting. That's pretty blatant. And I am constantly amazed at the things we officials like to "add on" to the rules to justify a call/no-call. Things like "he was falling early"

Seriously. You warn early in the game for little stuff. This is not little.

There are a lot of games where a taunt like that leads to a fight if it's not addressed properly.

And this play blows right through any possible warnings I may have given. Straight tea, no chaser.

There is a difference between emotional and taunting. Emotional is running back up court pounding your chest or flexing your biceps. This is standing over a prone player, then bending down to his face to embarrass him further.

yep, let him learn to express his emotions properly. I'm sick and tired of people using "emotional game" as an excuse for childish behavior.

I think this discussion isn't half as animated if the C isn't completely clueless about his positioning. I just want to reach into the screen and smack him when I watch the video.

Even if he were the T in a 2-p crew he's still way too high and disengaged.

And I'm guessing this was a playoff crew?

Oy vey.

My guess is a missed rotation.

I think the score 70-61 at the end of the clip is incorrect, but I don't know. The tv scorekeeper was having trouble keeping up.

The sequence starts 64-61. The first basket should make it 66-61. Calling a PC keeps the score 66-61. Making both free throws of a technical foul would make it a one possession game.

I agree that a 70-61 score would make for a teachable moment. Perhaps the home scorekeeper liked the dunk so much that he counted it twice.
:)
(I think the defender was leaning backwards, but everyone who visits this board know that a defender is allowed to absorb contact and also move backward and maintain LGP. Almost everyone else thinks that leaning backwards negates a defender's ability to draw a charge.)

The old C needs to quit worrying about the ball. Especially after a monster slam like this and his partner at the table.

Yeah, that was as hard to watch as the missed taunting technical.

Maybe it's just me?
 

Did anyone notice the clock on the video? Maybe it's just the TV's version of the electronic scoreboard, but it appears the foul was called at :32. The clock then runs down to :24. While the foul is being reported the clock is reset to :34? :confused:

EDIT: Not that this is the most important thing going on in the play. Just interesting to note

1-Initial thought was a a no call. Hard to tell how much contact occured from the video angle. After repeated viewings it might be a block.

2-PC + T for taunting.

I'm much more concerned with the uncalled taunting T than I am with any possibility of missed block/charge plays. The former would get you taken off tournament assignments in my area without question. The latter, by far less likely.

I cannot believe anyone would condone swallowing the whistle on that taunt. You let that go uncalled, and you open the door for all hell to break loose. Who cares what the coach would think? Part of our JOB is to enforce sportsmanship. I wouldn't care if that dunk tied the national championship game. Not a chance I ignore that taunt if I see it and not a chance any supervisor of mine would be happy if I did ignore it.

The C has his eyes glued to the ball during the entire video. While I agree with an earlier post that his poor position likely involved a missed rotation, the reason for the missed rotation is ball watching.

Watch his head... He follows the ball the entire clip. This causes him to be terribly out of position to begin and also causes him to miss a very easy and necessary T at the end. At first I thought he saw the taunt and that's why he came sprinting in from half court, but now I'm thinking he just really wanted to get the ball back. He doesn't go to the players and doesn't appear to say anything to diffuse the situation, so it seems he just wanted to hustle in and get the ball.

One more point... The taunt is definitely the worst miss in the clip and should have been seen by both the L and the C. I explained why I think the C missed it, but the L really should har been the first to pick it up. He has a foul, successful dunk, and players on the floor. In the context of the game situation he HAS to take those players all the way to the floor. If he would have done this he would have seen the setup for the taunt and should have stayed even longer to let the entire play finish. Instead he races out to report the foul and leaves the players alone with no eyes on them.

Somebody has to get that taunt, and it was missed badly by both the C and T primarily because of positioning and mechanics.

The slot and the lead should have been racing to see who could get the T first.

The taunting was already over by the time the C was trying to corral the ball. He missed the T by not being at the FTLE and watching the players, not chasing the ball. Lead is most culpable here IMO.

If there was a taunt, and I'm not sure that there was(yes it does look it was) then it should have been the lead. That's tough because you are going for the foul motions, but in that situation I'd want the calling ref to see the outcome and wait around a bit more. The lead had the best angle to see if there was a taunt. I can't fault the center ref for not calling it.

I don't know what you mean by the bolded part, but when I have a foul and any amount of players on the floor as a result, I do not leave the scene of the crime until one of my partners comes in. I stand there with a raised fist observing the subsequent action.

When I am the closest non-calling official, I sprint in and let my partner know I have it and he can go report.

Lots of times the "clock" at the bottom of the screen isn't sync'd to the game clocks. That's why the monitor reviews need to see a sync'd clock or the stadium clocks, not the TV clock.

If you watch closely, you can see some sort of anomaly with the TV clock on many games.

What the hell do you think the player was doing then?

I think I have a T for taunting. Otherwise I have a no call. It looked like he flopped to me.

Now this makes me wonder who was working this game. ;)

Peace

There probably was a taunt. It probably should have been a T. I just don't think we can say for sure there was. Maybe the dunker just let out a scream and rocked his head. I do think that is unlikely, but it could have been a situation when a T wasn't called for. And that would have been better for the lead to see.

Player dunks the ball on a opponent...opponent is on the ground...dunker stands over opponent on floor...head moves down in direction of opponent on the floor...

998/1000 times, he ain't whispering sweet nothings into his ear about a great attempt to challenge the play.

I have the same as you.

What makes you so unsure? I can say with near certainty that he was taunting the kid laying on the floor. Like someone said, what else would he be doing?

This. I didn't see an extended hand to help the defender get up.

And on the flip side, when players are helping opponents up, I make sure to acknowledge it with a positive comment.

When there's a monster dunk, my eyes go right to the dunker in the immediate aftermath. I'm not looking to nail a taunt, but I'm certainly not going to miss one.

There is zero excuse not to put a whistle on that taunt. Everyone in the gym knows that kind of behavior is supposed to be penalized. That is not even a judgment call; it's a recognition call that merits a whistle whether it's a third grade rec game or the Final Four.

For those who say or imply that they wouldn't call it, how would you be explaining that to the opposing coach or your supervisor if you were in that position?

No call, player control, and a T.

Honestly, these are 3 easy calls to get. The Trail should have picked up the T because the L didn't officiate right to the end of that match-up.

1. No call.

2. No call- he flopped.

3. Obvious T for taunting. Regardless of the time left on the clock.

This is not meant to single you out. Someone needs to define flop for me.

I see "flop" comments all over this message board when discussing block/charge calls. It's amazing to me how many of us look for any reason possible for no calls on what are clearly PC fouls. Many of us are afraid to make the correct call because of fears of being fooled on a legitimate flop. This defensive player had position and took the contact. The defense deserves to be rewarded for getting to the position first and making a good defensive play.

Players who flop should not be rewarded. But I think there is such a witch hunt for floppers that legitimate defensive plays are being penalized far too frequently.

A flop is when a defender falls backward intentionally in an effort to embellish minimal (or no) contact.


What is a legitimate flop?

Faking Being Fouled ...
 

In proper rule language:

10-3-6 -F: A player shall not: Commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to, acts or conduct such as: Faking being fouled, knowingly attempting a free throw, or accepting a foul to which the player was not entitled.

A flop is only one example of faking being fouled. There are others.

I don't know but I've heard officials will shut it down. :cool:

I know what a flop is. It was a rhetorical question...and a poor choice of words. Legitimate flop? Laughing at myself.

By legitimate flop, I meant really feigning being fouled. Reggie Miller was a flopper. Dennis Rodman was a flopper. I don't see that in this video nor many of the other block/charge videos have been discussed recently.

That is where we disagree. I don't think the defensive player took as much contact as you do. I have no problem calling charges but I'm not going to reward bad defence.

Good defense doesn't require standing in there and "taking it like a man."

I never said it did. But going down early, or too easily isn't good defence.

It is according to the Unwritten Rules for Officiating Division 1 Basketball Handbook™!

Ya I didn't read anything Blias or Dickie V have authored.

It is a simple matter of physics. If a players upper body starts going down before they are contacted in their lower extremities...

I'll finish that for you...

....it is entirely irrelevant.

The call is simple, does the offensive player go through the space legally obtained by the defender? If the defender starts fading back AND the offense still hits them, that only magnifies the fact that the offensive player went through their space.

Legal ...
 

4-23-3-E: The guard may turn or duck to absorb the shock of imminent contact.

And, of course, the defender is always allowed to move backward.

That has nothing to do with the NCAA (at least W) rule. There is no T for flopping.

Cripes, the C (although way to high) is looking at the taunt and even closes on it and ignores it. The lead shouldn't have bailed, but my goodness the C was out of position on that entire sequence........

Alma Mater ...
 

griblets didn't specify high school, or college, so I went with what I know.