NBA - Chris Paul Criticizing a Female Official
 

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/...ree/ar-AA92S9k

"If that's the case, this might not be for her.""

What do you think the fine's gonna be here? :rolleyes:

If Paul's account of the rest of the exchange proves true, probably minimal.

I think he is going to have to clarify what he meant. For one he was making these comments after the game. He might have said other things that got him a T during the game. So I am sure that will be in the game report too. I think $10,000 might be the max he will get at this time.

Peace

"Paul, who also is head of the National Basketball Players Association, and several other Clippers players said after postgame interviews that their displeasure had nothing to do with Holtkamp's gender and everything to do with the calls she made on the court."

Replace "her" with "him" and he could have easily applied that statement to any other rookie official.

I think the fine will be around $25K, which is in line with most recent fines for public criticism of officials.

1) he criticized her as an inexperienced official, not as a female official.

2) his account of what happened sounds like a bunch of jibberish

When's the last time a player said that officiating "may not be for him" with regard to a rookie male official?

Maybe he was not, but it was very dismissive of her. Not sure he would have said that if she was a male. So he set himself up for that one if that is not what he really meant.

Peace

Looked like a game that was full of unnecessary BS and the crew took care of business.

Good for them. Hopefully the league stands behind them.

I just saw the replay on ESPN for Chris Paul's play. I'll just say he a straight up liar in his accounting of what happened. I've lost all respect for him.

Lauren played in college here and started officiating in our association. I don't know her since she had moved before I started, but from all accounts she is top notch.

The paper had an article about all this today and posted it on their Facebook page. Locals are taking jabs at her, including some high school officials, which is pretty low.

I watched all the 3rd quarter techs and I totally agree. All of them looked 100% to me. Holtkamp should be getting praise from this situation.

Can anyone ever remember the focus of a player on a rookie official? This is why I do not why I do not believe Paul at all.

Peace

Jealousy....typical HS association backbiting towards officials who choose to rise to upper levels of officiating.

Even if she was a horrible official when there (doubtful), the local officials should STFU. I wouldn't want to work with any of them, personally.

Referee's Union offers support of Holtkamp.

http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/s...geles-clippers

Inquiring Minds Want To Know ???
 

"Paul got his technical when, after a Cleveland free throw, the Clippers were attempting to inbound the ball quickly, but Holtkamp stepped in and Paul questioned her."

Why does the official have to handle the ball after made free throw?

He was dismissive of the rookie OFFICIAL...not HER. He has to use the personal pronoun in order to be grammatically correct. Would you feel the same way if he said: "This may not be for IT"?....

The official is a rookie who called an un-warranted T and was criticized by a player....what else is new - happens often...

btw - for those who are gender sensitive, making a "big deal" out of something that isn't a "big deal" doesn't mean that others are making it a "big deal"...YOU are the only ones making it a "big deal"!

it was not after a free throw. it was after a turnover and one of the Clippers snatched the ball from her

It was a turnover off a bad pass by LeBron, not after a free throw.

I Found This Honest Abe Quote On The Internet ...
 

http://www.spin.ph/basketball/news/c...echnical-fouls

Like Abraham Lincoln said, "Don't believe everything that you read on internet".

I think he was just dismissive of her. I do not think it is about being sensitive of gender, but an recognition of the fact that in the world of sports which is often male dominated, males dismiss women's roles in sports and have for years. I have worked with female official only to have that male coach say something about the person in mainly gender classifications. It happens in other areas of our sports/officiating like race, height, weight, athletic size all get mentioned and now we are to think her gender could not be mentioned as a way to dismiss her ability? I would have not problem if he had said something only about the call, but he mentioned "This might not be for her." I do not hear NBA players make those kinds of comments publicly about any officiating rookie. For one they will get fined if they say anything about an official negatively.

Those can disagree, but I feel he was dismissing her because she was a woman.

Peace

Those that watch the NBA would recognize the situation: turnover after a recent stoppage in play (meaning there would be no subs) and a low clock. I've seen refs grab the ball and give it to the players right away within a couple seconds, which is much faster than your average ceremonial throw-in. Apparently CP3 got impatient this time.

I don't think we can really know if it was rookie or female or just calls that irritated him. Nor do I think the fact he said soemthing tells much -- mos NBA players are smarter than to talk about their dismissive feelings about refs, as they don't like the fines. Were I to guess, I would guess that it was the calls that bothered him, and the fact that she was a rookie and a woman both made it a bit easier for him to feel he could dismiss her. And I would guess he honestly believes it has nothing to do with her being a woman -- or he could just be a misogynist pig.

HATERS GONNA HATE:mad:

People are certainly free to "read between the lines" when hearing comments made by another. However, they run the risk of being incorrect when they ascribe meaning to statements thru lens of their own viewpoint & perspective.

Chris Paul was complaining about the officiating...nothing more nothing less.

A famous person once said: "Context is everything."

Consider that: the Clippers complain more than any team in the NBA (may have the most T's this season) about officiating; received 5 T's in this game; Chris Paul is the Pres. of the NBAPA (which now has a woman as Ex. Dir.); & is generally considered a true "nice guy" in NBA circles.

When I heard those comments, I heard a frustrated player complaining about an unwarranted T he received by a rookie official....because THAT is exactly what happened. Nothing more - nothing less.

btw - there are 2 reasons you don't hear NBA players making comments about female NBA rookie officials: 1) 1997 was the last time there was a female rookie NBA official (there were two that season: Violet Palmer (still active) and Dee Kantner (fired in 2002)); and 2) it's only because the official in question is a woman that these remarks are being noticed.

Every season for the past 18 years (since Palmer & Kantner were hired), players, coaches, & others have complained about bad calls by rookie officials - this is no different, except that people are taking a fairly routine occurrence and turning it into something more than it really deserves.

Chris Paul will get fined by the NBA and I'll bet that the NBA doesn't even come close to mentioning gender in its statement in announcing the fine. This will go away if people will simply let Paul's innocuous statement stand on its' own rather than insert their own sensitivities to it.

Let's See The Play ...
 

Straight From The Horse's Mouth ...
 

I haven't seen any of the game, but from those who have and are posting on here, you seem to be the only one who thinks the T wasn't warranted.

That said, it's not related to the question of whether his criticism is related to her gender. That's not as simple a question as it should be, IMO.

Watching the video, she moved just as fast as possible on this.

Not the issue.

Not entirely true...outside of two minutes in each quarter, if there's a violation where the ball will be inbounded in the backcourt, the substitute must already be in the substitution box at the time of the violation.

Exactly, she went just as fast as any other ref would have done in the situation.

I'm not saying there would be no subs allowed by rule, just that no coach would have sent new subs to the table so quickly following a timeout or free throws.

I do not care if what is the context that you see it to be. I have every right to judge based on his actions and his comments. Again, I have yet to hear anyone give me a single case where an NBA player spoke personally about a rookie of any other gender or time or situation. I watch a lot of SportsCenter and cannot think of one case. Not a single one.

I also saw the Paul comments and just like any other comments, I do not believe him. I have the right not to believe him. He is trying to cover his behind IMO and he clearly to me was trying to rip her because she was an easy target. I doubt seriously that the entire conflict was only because she was a rookie. He did not like a woman telling him what to do and that is why he had to talk about her qualifications, not that it was just a bad call.

Peace

From ESPN.com:
TORONTO -- National Basketball Players Association executive director Michele Roberts said any suggestion that Los Angeles Clippers guard Chris Paul would be disrespectful toward women is "utterly ridiculous, outrageous and patently false," hours after the head of the National Basketball Referees Association called the All-Star's comments on official Lauren Holtkamp "personal and unprofessional."

"Without hesitation, the Players Association stands firmly behind Chris, whose competitiveness may only be exceeded by the strength of his values and his conviction," Roberts said in a statement.

On Friday, Paul repeatedly said it was "a bad call" that prompted him to criticize Holtkamp's officiating Thursday night -- nothing more.
-------------------------
As I've said before, a person can infer whatever meaning they want to Chris Pauls' comments, however they run the risk of being entirely wrong. Unfortunately, it seems as though you've taken his comments out of context and assigned gender-discrimination to them inaccurately.

btw - Did you know that Violet Palmer was assigned to work the 1997 NCAA Division 1 Men's Basketball Tournament only to have that assignment revoked when "people" complained about having a woman officiate men's games? Now THAT is a case of comments/actions being taken because of a person's gender….THIS (Chris Paul) is not.

So the union stands behind their president? Oh, never mind then. :rolleyes:

He would've never said anything had this been a male. He would've been another nameless, faceless official. One person here seems to think otherwise. He's wrong.

OK and the NBARA stood behind the official. And I heard that Paul was fined 25K for this little comments.

Peace

Fine With Me ...
 

Would the fine be the same if he had criticized a male official in the same manner for the same situation?

"Chris Paul has been fined $25,000 for his public criticism of Lauren Holtkamp, the first-year referee who called a technical foul against the Los Angeles Clippers star point guard earlier this week."
Full story:
http://m.espn.go.com/nba/story?storyId=12292518

Agreed.

Many years ago, a rookie ref called a foul on Michael Jordan, near the end of a close game, against the Utah Jazz. When Mr. Jordan verbally objected, with something along the lines of, "You can't call that on me!" the ref T'd him and tossed him. The Jazz won the game.
That rookie ref lost his schedule for the rest of the season, and was brought back the next season, "on probation". It was understood by the officials, and those of us who knew the background of the situation, that A) nobody comes to watch the refs, and B) nobody comes to watch the 11th or 12th player on the bench.

Got a citation for this bit of trivia?

The guy that said it hasn't worked long enough to have worked with her. I know she worked MS games here but I'm not sure if she ever worked much varsity before she moved away.

The main comment had to do with how the official thought she needs to go work in the WNBA. Typical sexist stuff.

I watched the game. And the follow-up portion of my narative came from 2 NBA refs, one of whom, as a guest speeker, recited the story to our officiating group of aprox. 150 officials. The other confirmed the story in personal conversations, with me and others of my officiating colleagues.

Talk about running the risk of being incorrect...How can you possibly know this to be the case? You are doing EXACTLY what you describe in your post..."thru lens of their own viewpoint & perspective"

One would hope that the league would be consistent, but we all know that the fine would not be the same. This particular fine is about the NBA attempting to protect its newest female official. For several years now league has made it known that it has a desire to have a female official or two working games and is going to take whatever measures it needs to enact that. This is mostly PR and PC so the league can been seen as inclusive.

As I predicted, Chris Paul was fined by the NBA and not mention of "gender issues" being considered - BECAUSE IT BAD NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT HE SAID! Case closed....

You really expected them to address that angle?

Like the NBA would address that....

Two cents? I want change.

Don't forget that the NBA has clamped down quite a bit on player behavior in the past several years.

Here's the clip of what is likely the game in question:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErOSUnO1oH0

I can't confirm or deny the allegations that the rookie ref lost his schedule.

Jordan and Phil Jackson had it coming. Wouldn't be the first time a bus got run over an official who properly ejected a player.

Looks like a good ejection for me.

I agree, except for the fact that I'm a Bulls Fan. :D

If that were to happen today, the broadcasters would've roasted the officials for the remainder of the game about the officials taking the game out of the players' hands.

And the schedule alteration would have been the primary news story for about 48 hours.

This is flat out wrong and an attempt to twist facts to fit your pre-determined narrative.

As I stated the day before the fine was announced, Paul's fine was in line with several other recent examples of fines levied for public criticism of officials.

Documentary
 

I saw this documentary a few months ago called Summer Dreams. It features Lauren Holtkamp as the referee hopeful making her way into the D league. It's a fascinating look into her life.

If you want to know more about Lauren, that's a great place to start. I have no idea what Chris Paul said or didn't say. And I'm certainly not qualified to judge whether it was a good T or not. All I can say is she definitely belongs where she is and I'm happy for her. I've never met her but if I can be half the official she is, then I'm doing well.

I understand that Lauren Holtkamp had officiated at least one other Clippers game prior to the game in question. The greater onus is on Chris Paul for the scenario in question.

I just think it is idiotic to imply someone is not ready for the NBA based on one technical foul call. Makes me question whether he is qualified to be in a union leadership position.

Exactly!!!

Peace

I had the pleasure of working with her at camp last summer. She was phenomenal to work with! I'm glad to see she's doing well in her career because she's earned it.

I think's ridiculous to say that about any level. I'm tired of hearing officials need to get thicker skin rather than hearing that coaches and players need to behave like adults.

That's BS. The official is doing his job, and the league doesn't back him up? I get that the NBA is more entertainment than basketball, but this is low. Star or not, you should not be allowed to yell at an official and criticize his call. The official was right. How did he turn out in the end? Did the NBA fire him after his probationary period, or did he stay on and be successful? If I was a D1 assigner, I'd give this guy a job on the spot if the NBA fired him.

You apparently don't understand the job. That statement was not T-worthy at that level.

Stop resurrecting old threads.

Agreed. Especially when you then talk about it in the present tense.

And The Hits Just Keep On Coming ...
 

It's just like listening to the "Oldies" radio station.

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.d...id=15.1&P=0&w=

Exactly. Stop. That's our official position. If something is thread-worthy now, start a new one.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Thread Worthy ...
 

Good policy.