Most fitting coach objection
 

JVB tonight. Very good game, went into overtime, thanks to a V comeback, including a V three at the buzzer to end regulation.

(And yes, one varsity crew member asked why I didn't call a travel on that shot.)

Coach V has been clearly on the whiny side. (Coach H has been fine.) Fourth quarter, 30-second time out, throw-in at the sideline, near H bench. Team H breaks after the first horn, and is ready for the throw-in before the second horn. I administer. Second horn sounds; Team V is still huddling. I hold for a few seconds, no huddle breakage, eyeball my partner, whistle, point, hand the ball, as V is breaking the huddle, and finally hustling out of it. ("Ridiculous!" I hear from the V bench.)

H's possession comes up empty, but V is still grumbling at me on the way back down.

Me: "Coach, they were ready. You weren't!"
Coach V: "We were coming out! Come on, YOU KNOW THE RULE!"

There it is.

I doubt the 4th quarter is the right spot to first use the RoP procedure. Get it earlier in the game or use some other method to speed up the team.

The OP didn't say anything about there being a problem with delays earlier in the game. What "other method" do you suggest? It's not our job to baby the teams when they aren't ready when the second horn blows.

An oxymoron if ever there was one. :rolleyes:

In the 4th quarter of a close game? I'd wait and ask the coach when I near his bench to get them out quicker next time. 4th quarter of a blowout? Put that sucker down.

Based on the description, I'm in the camp of giving the teams a lot of encouragement to get them on the court with 30 seconds of a close game. One official could have stood outside his huddle to move them along. Perhaps a "we're getting ready to put the ball in play whether you're ready or not" statement would get them out of the huddle. I think it was good that you didn't whack the coach after the "you know the rule comment".

Of course, your association may not tolerate teams coming out of a timeout late, in which case, you definitely did the right thing.

My association isn't real strict about it so most of us tolerate it more than in other areas.

If it had been a problem throughout the game, it should have been addressed earlier in the game. If it wasn't a problem until then, it was simply a matter of timeouts not being nearly long enough for the coach to convey all that he thought needed to be said.

Do you ever see this done in a college or NBA game when you're watching on TV? No.

So why do NFHS games become this weird laboratory for officiating experiments? This kind of, "watch what I have the power to do!" stuff is nonsense. Indeed, fourth quarter of a close game, for Pete's sake please find another way to address this.

John Adams et al. made teams not breaking timeouts an NCAA POE a couple years back. But like pace of play in baseball, change isn't coming overnight. So in the meantime, stay close to the huddle, stare in the assistant coach's face, hold up two fingers, and keep verbalizing. But please don't put the ball down when an entire team isn't even moving onto the floor. For college officials that's a sure way to get kicked off a staff. Should be like that for HS, too.

I'd recommend following the rule over your advice.

If you were a cop, you'd pull me over for doing 57 in a 55, wouldn't you?

I'd certainly ticket you for making an illegal u-turn.

I agree with this 100%. U never see it at the higher levels, cuz it's unnecessary. It should be a last resort after prior warnings have gone unheeded. I've seen officials do it when we're few seconds late, and we're hustling onto the court, and they put the ball down. that's crap. In my opinion.

Spoken like a true coach. How about you have your team break the huddle after the first horn as it is supposed to do?

This is what we were taught, this is what we do, and (most) teams here know this.

Nobody is recommending setting the ball down exactly one second after the second horn. If I see a conscious effort to get on the court, fine.

No, sir. It's never about us. It's about moving the game along and not stalling. You had 30 or 60 seconds, including a 15-second warning. If you're still huddling after the second horn, and you're not coming out, whose fault is that?

Thank you. We do. How about you don't get your panties in a bunch if we break the huddle a second late. Spoken like a true over-officious, power-hungry look what i can do, referee.

Put me down on the side of "no freaking way I'd ever put it on the floor here."

I have put the ball on the floor a few times. I think the last time was about 2012.

That said, the times I've done it are when I've had to work too hard to get a team out earlier in the game and the team subsequently hasn't bothered starting to break the huddle on the second horn later even with an official in there trying to break it up. They figure I won't do anything about it...and that's when I will.

You are out of line. I didn't add any of the unnecessary and insulting modifers that you did.

My point is merely that a coach shouldn't complain about an official who adheres to the rule. Sadly, that is what you are doing. You want something more than to which you and your team are entitled.

Exactly (Almost) ...
 

Minus the part about a few seconds late, that's exactly when I do it, after the first horn warning, including an oral warning of, "First horn", wait an extra ten seconds, or so, sounding my whistle as loud as I can, yelling, "Blue ball, blue ball", as loud as I can, and seeing blue finally break the huddle, heading toward the court; that's when I put it down, and start my slightly slow, exaggerated, highly visible, five second count signal. The result won't be a five second violation, but it will be a warning that the next time I may put the ball down for real. There usually isn't a next time, not for several years.

I'd recommend following the standard in your area.

some places -- it's second horn, wait 1 second, whistle, ball in play.

some places -- it's second horn, talk to the huddle, clap your hands, if even one player is starting to move toward the floor wait, .....

most places -- it's somewhere in-between.

It should be the first. But, just like the "automatic fouls", until EVERYONE gets on the same page, and the coaches know it's coming, and they accept that it's their "fault" if the team isn't out on time, ... it won't change.

I put the ball down for the first time in probably ten years last week after waiting about 5 seconds with no sign of breaking the huddle at all.

If you show that you're breaking the huddle I'll wait but if you're just ignoring the horn, especially if the opponent has honored it, we're not being fair if we don't set it down.

Exactly. It's one of my favorite moments when I give the ball to a team who is ready at the second horn and they are able to score an easy layup as the other team is sprinting to try and get into position. Usually clears up any problem we have getting them out of the huddle in the future.

In the games I work, it would be the perfect recipe for a technical foul.

If you're serious, this is horrible advice unless everyone does it that way where you live and it's expected.

One time is fine....but consistently doing so is showing direct disrespect to the officials.

I save this technique for the AAU and travel youth ball leagues.

Sorry about that. I thought the sarcastic "true coach" was meant as an insult.

In our area, this is how it is handled 99% of the time: If it's the first time a team is a couple seconds late out of the huddle, and they're hustling out, then the ball isn't set down.

It is rare, but when I do see an official set the ball down under those circumstances, I'm sorry, but I do consider it overly-officious and uppity.

I'm not asking for more than my team is entitled - just consistency.

Its not the "few seconds late" that most of us officials have an issue with. Its the coach who is still drawing on the board when the second horn blows, and then his team isn't on the floor for another 15 seconds while he finishes what he is telling his team, and then throws a huddle break chant on top of it. Its your world Coach, we're just living in it.

No, but if I warned you 5 days straight and every day you increased your speed by a few mph then I would then ticket you. If you kept going 57 I probably wouldn't notice.

If he did get a ticket for going 57, I'm curious what his argument would be in court.
"I was only slightly speeding."
"I wasn't breaking the law by much."
"What I did was illegal, but I still shouldn't be punished."

And, I would add that they then break the huddle followed by a slow walk onto the court. I completely understand your issue with that behavior.

I would argue selective, biased enforcement. Which is what I've been arguing all along.

To be fair, if this happened in an NBA game, the team would be assessed a delay of game warning. So a team is only gonna do this once before being assessed a technical.

Put me in the camp though of doing absolutely everything to avoid the ROP. If they're coming out late enough for you to consider doing this, I can almost guarantee they've done this early in the game. IF you're gonna use the ROP, I'd be using it earlier in the game. I don't want the first time to be in the fourth quarter.

Fact Check ...
 

Coach Bill: Just curious. How many of these "put the ball down" situations have become five second violations against your team? How many have escalated to technical fouls?

I think you're wrong on your guarantee. It happens when it happens. More times than not, it's going to happen late in the game when the coach is trying to relate a detailed play in a tight situation. That's the conversation that takes 45 seconds that he's trying to squeeze into 30.

That said, we should be hustling them out of their huddles the whole game.

You can use "ROP-Lite" early in the game to *help* reduce the chances of needed to use ROP late in the game.

If a team is a little slow coming out early, blow the whistle as they first break the huddle, and be deliberate in putting the ball on the floor (or giving it to the other team).

You don't need to wait for them to set up the offense / defense, but you also don't want to give the other team an easy basket or create a 5-second violation.

That only works if they are a little slow early. The last time I had to use the ROP they weren't slow at all until they were a lot slow late. The problem with the idea of needing to get it early if you're going to get it late is it doesn't always happen early.

well, of course.

But, it happens frequently enough that it should be used, imo. I see too many times where the second horn has sounded and the officials just wait for everyone to amble into position.

then in the second quarter, 9 of them amble, while the coach gets one more instruction in to the PG, and the officials wait.

Then in the third quarter, the team breaks, but meets again by the FT line ...

Then in the fourth quarter, they are still in the huddle.

I use ROP maybe a couple times a season. If we're 10-15 seconds past the second horn and one team shows no sign of moving, I'm going to make the ball live. I've never had anyone complain about it.

I may also use ROP if a team has repeatedly failed to come out of time-outs/intermissions in a timely manner throughout the game and I've spoken with them about the delay. In that case, I might make the ball live 5-10 seconds after the second horn, even if they appear to be finishing up.

I like the ROP-lite mechanic. :)

It sounds like a trick I've done in the past. Hand the ball to the thrower-in just as B breaks the huddle, and they have to jog to play D. Or put the ball down when the thrower-in is "almost there". If they are paying attention, they will get the message with little to no effect on the possession. But continually hanging around their huddle and using your voice is craziness, imho.

There are officiating tools available. Use them.

Yep. I think I've only actually used the ROP procedure once this year (Actually sat the ball down). I've done what you're describing several times. If the throw-in team is lollygagging around and doesn't act like they care how quickly they get there, just set it down. That usually hurries them up.

Sorry, but you don't see it at higher levels because it's not necessary, the coaches know how to manage the time allotted in a timeout. There's a reason we get someone outside the huddle after the first horn. It works here. And if it doesn't, then the ball goes live.

Now, the process I use to do this normally gives them a few extra seconds to get in place. Frankly, I never see a defensive team do this because the risk is higher.

And if a team has been able to get out on time all game, they can do it with 30 seconds left, too. I don't get that.

But here, we're expected to use RPP if it comes to it, and I rarely have to do it more than once a game.

No technical fouls for sure. Not sure of any 5-second calls. I don't even remember the ball being set down on us in a very long time.

We had this situation last night late in a Varsity Game. By rule you might be absolutely within the boundaries, but to me this falls under game management, I am going to do everything to act annoyed, give a few extra "hustle up, lets go green" but I am not putting the ball in play in the front court in this situation.

You said before your OP that V's coach was whiney, consciously or subconsciously you have to ask yourself if that played into your decision. If it didn't, then live with your decision and move on. Right or wrong, by the many posts on this subject guys are going to handle this different ways.

#amen #whathesaid

A few years ago in a HS football playoff game, the defense was slow to return after a timeout and the crew marked the ball ready for play, the offense snapped the ball, and waltzed into the end zone for a touchdown.

This was not good officiating.