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  #61 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 31, 2015, 07:17pm
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I had a coach this week yell to his players "look out, these guys are calling EVERYTHING." It seems that parents/coaches are constantly complaining that we aren't calling enough fouls and then complain that we call to many.

As a ref I don't care who wins, who fouls out, what the foul count is, etc. I only care about enforcing the rules using my judgement and experience. I always "call it both ways", I know how to "count to three", and "yes coach, that really was a foul".

When I was coaching basketball I got T'd up regularly for "working" the refs too hard. Now that I'm on this side of the game I realize I was out of line most of the time and wish I had a better understanding of advantage/disadvantage, RSBQ, illegal contact, and the rules in general. It would have made me a better coach.
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  #62 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 31, 2015, 07:18pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccrroo View Post
This one made me pause. I'm certainly going to have to give this some thought. I'm pretty sure I didn't know that refs also had to rate the strength of the player. That certainly complicates it.
There's a rule here that we have to consider when reffing, and you may not be aware of. Essentially, it states that any contact which does not hinder normal offensive or defensive movements is to be ruled "incidental" and not a foul. That's what Rich meant by his comment. Stronger dribblers will simply be able to play through more contact than weaker dribblers.

We don't have to spend any time watching them or gauging their relative strengths, we simply watch the results of the play.
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  #63 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 31, 2015, 07:21pm
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Originally Posted by Adam View Post
There's a rule here that we have to consider when reffing, and you may not be aware of. Essentially, it states that any contact which does not hinder normal offensive or defensive movements is to be ruled "incidental" and not a foul. That's what Rich meant by his comment. Stronger dribblers will simply be able to play through more contact than weaker dribblers.

We don't have to spend any time watching them or gauging their relative strengths, we simply watch the results of the play.
Thanks Adam, that does help.
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  #64 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 31, 2015, 07:29pm
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So I'll give it another shot of why I want vid 2 called. (and yes, I missed the obvious ones about foul trouble and foul shots - thanks guys)

I'm learning it's wrong, but that defensive player in vid 2 made contact with the dribbler as he was trying to steal the ball. Whether he got the ball or not, he made contact trying to steal the ball.

I'll probably regret saying this, but I'm pretty sure I've seen many, many examples where contact is made away from the ball with absolutely no bearing on the play and yet a foul is called. It feels inconsistent and random at best.
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  #65 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 31, 2015, 07:38pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccrroo View Post
Whether he got the ball or not, he made contact trying to steal the ball.
Right, and the result of whatever potential contact he made was as if he had never made any at all. Your ballhandler didn't bat an eyelash and continued on his merry way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccrroo View Post
I'll probably regret saying this, but I'm pretty sure I've seen many, many examples where contact is made away from the ball with absolutely no bearing on the play and yet a foul is called.
Define "no bearing" on the play. Keep in mind you're ONLY watching the ball. Officials are not. We're watching cutters getting chucked/rerouted/held, rebounders being pushed/displaced, post players being held/pushed. That's all away from the ball in areas you're paying no attention to because coaches and fans (especially at this level) only see the ball.

But it absolutely has major bearing on the the plays. Without examples of the plays you have in mind, that's at least some food for thought.
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  #66 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 31, 2015, 07:41pm
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If your still game, here are 2 more that confused me. Especially, in light of some of the stuff I've learned (contact not affecting the outcome type stuff -- I know poorly worded).

(I'm trying to embed this time, so I hope it works)

Video 6
Ref calls a block foul. I'm too biased and don't know the technicalities well enough to say otherwise. But in this case, the offense doesn't seem hindered. So why is the foul necessary?

http://youtu.be/CkEWlSeDq9Q



Video 7
No foul called here.
I see defender 1 sort of on top of the dribbler in a bad position but he's strong enough to dribble through, so ok (i'm learning). Then I see defender 2 cut across. And as the dribbler shoots, his elbow and leg hit defender 2 which causes an air ball. If vid 1 and 6 are blocks because the defender didn't have perfect position during contact, why is this different. The defender isn't in perfect condition during the contact.

http://youtu.be/J19VdVn35Jw

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  #67 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 31, 2015, 07:51pm
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Originally Posted by ODog View Post
Define "no bearing" on the play. Keep in mind you're ONLY watching the ball. Officials are not. We're watching cutters getting chucked/rerouted/held, rebounders being pushed/displaced, post players being held/pushed. That's all away from the ball in areas you're paying no attention to because coaches and fans (especially at this level) only see the ball.
.
Exactly. Refs are envisioning what might have happened if a player is held/pushed away from the ball. He might have cut to the low block for a layup or he might have just stayed put. Or his teammate may have never seen him.

I'm asking for the same imagination. It takes extra energy for the dribbler to constantly have to fight through that contact. It takes his focus away from starting the offense or seeing a wide open teammate down court. If a ref can imagine something that might be impeded, I'm asking for the same.

And that goes to my main point. If in general, less contact was allowed, the players would adjust and refs would actually have an easier job.
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  #68 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 31, 2015, 07:52pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccrroo View Post
So I'll give it another shot of why I want vid 2 called. (and yes, I missed the obvious ones about foul trouble and foul shots - thanks guys)

I'm learning it's wrong, but that defensive player in vid 2 made contact with the dribbler as he was trying to steal the ball. Whether he got the ball or not, he made contact trying to steal the ball.

I'll probably regret saying this, but I'm pretty sure I've seen many, many examples where contact is made away from the ball with absolutely no bearing on the play and yet a foul is called. It feels inconsistent and random at best.
Now you really are getting into the difference between knowing the rules as an official and a coach.

PLayer with the ball has no expectation of time and space must expect to be guarded. Player off the ball has an expectation of time and space.

Defender trying to get the steal is making a basketball play. Now official has to judge contact to see if ball carrier is disadvantaged. Defender hitting the off ball player has no reason to be doing so, thus much easier for official to say contact is impeding movement, leading to rough play etc.
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  #69 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 31, 2015, 08:05pm
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Originally Posted by ccrroo View Post
Exactly. Refs are envisioning what might have happened if a player is held/pushed away from the ball. He might have cut to the low block for a layup or he might have just stayed put. Or his teammate may have never seen him.

I'm asking for the same imagination. It takes extra energy for the dribbler to constantly have to fight through that contact. It takes his focus away from starting the offense or seeing a wide open teammate down court. If a ref can imagine something that might be impeded, I'm asking for the same.

And that goes to my main point. If in general, less contact was allowed, the players would adjust and refs would actually have an easier job.
Rules for time and space are different for on and off ball players. Chances of play off the ball having less to do with the play and playing basketball are also greater so greater risk of leading to rough play. Not apples and apples.
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  #70 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 31, 2015, 08:07pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccrroo View Post
If your still game, here are 2 more that confused me. Especially, in light of some of the stuff I've learned (contact not affecting the outcome type stuff -- I know poorly worded).

(I'm trying to embed this time, so I hope it works)

Video 6
Ref calls a block foul. I'm too biased and don't know the technicalities well enough to say otherwise. But in this case, the offense doesn't seem hindered. So why is the foul necessary?

http://youtu.be/CkEWlSeDq9Q



Video 7
No foul called here.
I see defender 1 sort of on top of the dribbler in a bad position but he's strong enough to dribble through, so ok (i'm learning). Then I see defender 2 cut across. And as the dribbler shoots, his elbow and leg hit defender 2 which causes an air ball. If vid 1 and 6 are blocks because the defender didn't have perfect position during contact, why is this different. The defender isn't in perfect condition during the contact.

http://youtu.be/J19VdVn35Jw

In the top video, the defender did not establish legal guard position before contact was made. Since LGP is actually defined by rule (4-23) it gets a call. This is not a situation where we are looking at the offense being hindered to determine if the contact was legal because the rule tells us its not. Therefore, foul.

In the bottom video, from this angle I would agree with you but I also have three reasons why this wasn't called. First, the ref had a different angle and although to us it looks like the contact made disrupted the shot the official may have seen the contact as marginal or could have seen it as a pass and not a shot so the offense was not hindered. Second, the ref may be inexperienced and is still learning to judge contact on these playes. Third, maybe he just missed it -- it happens.

Its also important to remember that not all contact is the same no matter how much it looks like the same contact.
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  #71 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 31, 2015, 08:07pm
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Video 6: Block. The offense most certainly is hindered. This player has every intention of driving to the hoop and shooting until a defender enters his path at the last second without establishing legal guarding position (2 feet down and facing the opponent). The result? A pass out to the deep wing instead of a potential layup. Block all day.

Video 7: Nothing. Defender 1 is borderline, but has no impact on your player getting exactly where he wants to get exactly when he wants to get there. But when he does, he's surprised by defender 2 running through to the endline and he loses the ball out of bounds. Elbow/leg contact (if any) is incidental. The result is a disappointing finish to an ill-advised drive into obvious pressure.

You're not seeing this through an even remotely objective lens, and I applaud that passion. I especially, however, applaud your video work. These are AWESOME clips of youth games, and I mean that sincerely. You have skills!
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  #72 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 31, 2015, 08:33pm
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I tend to think that officiating at that level is commensurate to the coaching level and playing level. the mistakes made by the officials are on par with the mistakes made by the players and the coaches
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  #73 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 31, 2015, 08:42pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich1 View Post
In the top video, the defender did not establish legal guard position before contact was made.
Defender 2 in the bottom video isn't required to be in legal guarding position?
It may not show on the video, but his elbow is hit by the defender and his leg is kicked out. And the ball barely gets of out his hand, as a result.

(warning- sarcasm -- if the dribbler wasn't constantly having to fight (be a strong dribbler) around defenders making contact out of legal guarding position, then maybe he would've been strong enough to fight through the incidental contact to his elbow and leg)
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  #74 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 31, 2015, 08:48pm
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Originally Posted by ODog View Post
I especially, however, applaud your video work. These are AWESOME clips of youth games, and I mean that sincerely. You have skills!
Thanks. Not even my best work - lol
I use a gopro mounted on the wall. Then use VLC to zoom and slow it down. But then the quality goes down quickly when I record the clip on my cell phone camera (because I'm too lazy to edit the clip outside of VLC).
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  #75 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 31, 2015, 08:51pm
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also, you should join the local officials association. you could work the age groups other than your team. this way you would be helping out from both sides of the fence.
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