Foul or good block? (Video)
 

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Peace

It's a clean block...if I had to venture a guess, the official would have tried to justify the call with saying the defender "got him with the body." Absolutely hate that term.

good block.
did the shot blocker play in college? big guy

The shot blocker is in the NBA right now.

Peace

Clean block. Gotta let big guys block shots and not give them cheap fouls.

Looks like Meyers Leonard to me.

It is him. Playing for Portland, went to Illinois.

Peace

Terrible whistle.

Clean block and a good example of when not to call across the paint from the Lead.

And looks like Meyers Leonard to me as well.

He is a big guy mutant. 7'1". Meyers Leonard. Illinois and Portland now.

Good block with little contact on my screen. Zebra likely would want that one back.

"And that kids is why you don't call across the lane as Lead!"

That's not across the paint. It's in the middle of the lane.

It's not a foul, either.

Clean block and verticality. All legal.

Looks like a clean block.

However, it is possible that the defenders arm made contact with the shooters head on the follow through. That's the only possible foul I could see here, and the lead would have been in a pretty good angle to see that type of contact.

I'm not going to say with certainty that its a terrible call unless I could see the angle from the other side.

Ouch...hate seeing these. Great position and body control by the defender. Almost a textbook block by a big guy who now has one extra foul to carry for the rest of the game. To echo what everyone has said...don't reach across. Trust your partner.

http://fronheiser.net/block.png

Again, how the HELL is this reaching across?

The defender is coming from behind and it's an opportunity for the T/C to come in with a foul if there is one and the L doesn't get it, but this is the L's primary. I don't see him calling across 2 lines here.

Agreed.

When the play started, Lead was past the edge of the opposite lane line. As the block occurs, he has traveled to the edge of the lane "pinching the paint" and more or less standing under the action. I contend that the C has a better view as he is (assumed to be) stationary looking into the play. The lead is moving as he makes the call....at least that's my analysis of the video. If you disagree that it's a reach, fine. Bottom line...there's no foul there.

I'm just trying to lay to rest the notion that this is reaching across the paint.

Reaching across means that the L is making a call outside the paint on the other side -- across 2 lines. In the lane, the L is primary. Doesn't mean the T/C stop working and get what's evident from their positions.

I'm not bothered by the L's positioning. He's moving, sure, but not exactly running in transition. He's closed down when the "foul" occurs -- he might have a better look being a step wider, actually.

The best part of 3-person is that you can trust the C/T to get the ones from behind if you don't get a great look, rather than guess through bodies. When my T/C come in with a foul, I always think (1) thank you and (2) could I have done something differently to get that one myself?

Ouch,

State final guy too.

I don't know about your three-person coverage diagram but mine shows Lead's primary ending in the middle of the lane. Both players in the video are on the far side of the basket ring from Lead, making this C's primary. Thus, Lead should not be calling across the lane and reaching into C's primary.

This is just an unfortunate call. The pinch of the paint actually resulted in a worse angle than if he had stayed, C looking right at it, L assumed illegal contact had occurred when the defender was actually vertical. Great block.

And in Illinois, this means exactly what? Certainly not the best officials the state has to offer. Many of the guys working the state tournament here are doing so as lifetime achievement awards. That is usually why they are 5+ years past their prime, can no longer run, and are 25+ pounds over weight.

I even think that is a little overstated.

This was a 2A State Final in 2009. That means that most of the teams are from these smaller, rural areas in our state. Most officials in the biggest area of officiating or the most trained part of the state (I know I grew up in Macomb), almost never works games at that level. I know when I lived in Central Illinois, I never had the bigger schools and when I moved to the suburbs, I had to adjust to the talent level that I was seeing at the Sophomore level compared to the varsity basketball I had previously worked.

In this particular game that I clipped, one team played in a conference where almost every school is a 3A-4A school and playing in the playoffs is mostly a cake walk. I will say this is similar to Hales or Seton who have won titles in these smaller classes, but did so playing teams they would never see at any tournament or regular season game during the year. But when the playoffs come they play teams smaller and less talented in the post season. The other team was a small rural town, but had a future NBA player on their roster. I would bet that this was probably the best talented two teams these guys had seen all year. And fast forward to what happened in 2A in 2012 and the fiasco that made national news that occurred that State Final Tournament, again not a single Chicago area official worked in that State Finals at all or even from an area like Peoria or the Quad Cities.

This kind of play we are discussing is common with teams that play above the rim. There are multiple players that can block shots like this and they are not 7 feet tall either. I think this was about experience with those players more than anything. I do not feel it is about their age as much. There are guys that can keep up much better in the 3A-4A State Finals and are not passed their time. Of course the system has guys that have been in the system a long time and might not be where they were 5 or 10 years ago, but that is the case in any system IMO. I would rather have someone wait and be ready for that moment, then get there really early and piss in their pants not having had a game of that magnitude until the State Finals. This situation was just an official anticipating a call without seeing the whole play IMO.

Peace

+1

My thoughts exactly as I am watching the video. He was screened out by the shooter on a play the C would be all over if something was there. Poor whistle....

In my region, and according to the IAABO high school and NCAA-W manuals, the Lead's primary ends in the middle of the lane, and "reaching across" means calling on the Center's side of that lane and/or outside "across two lines."

This is close, and the Lead does appear to have a patient whistle, which is how I typically pregame the Lead calling on the Center's side of the lane or more: Give the Center the first shot at a foul that is absolutely there, then if they don't call it, and it needs to be called, get it with a cadence whistle a beat later.

All of that being said, in this particular play, incorrect call, etc. etc.

Don't forget that there ratings were riding in the mid 90's when we could rate one another. I know some officials whose ratings went down in the low 70's, as soon as, the coaches rating became the only metric. That tells you something.

All that tells you is that different officials are better at brown nosing coaches than others. There will be some who's ratings do reflect actual ability. However, some coach's ratings, while you'd like to think reflect true ability, do no such thing. It creates a conflict of interest in that it provides an incentive for officials to make decisions based on ratings. Some officials do that and get better ratings while officials that are not afraid to take care of business may get lower ratings.

Officials ratings are also not necessarily any more accurate.

But, when you combine the two in the appropriate ratio, the anomalies of one are somewhat canceled out by the anomalies of the other.

Ratings were changed because you had a complete drop off in the overall numbers of ratings. Heck I went from 98 percentile in both levels and feel 5 or 6 percentile points when officials stopped rating. The more ratings you have regardless of the type of rating, the better you will be percentile wise.

Peace

And it did not matter. Ratings did not determine your assignments here. It was a very small percentage of the consideration. We have an overall Power Rating that the top score is 40 and and coaches ratings only factor into 5 points of that number. Basically an official that has never worked a State Finals, will never have a 40 until they work a State Finals. And even then that is not a guarantee.

The bottom line people worry too much about coach's ratings. I have never cared about those ratings and I am doing just fine in playoff assignments. There is so much that is considered than ratings people just do not like to admit that is a fact around here.

Peace

While I don't believe the call to be correct, I don't really believe he is calling "across the lane." The defender leaves the floor partially in his primary. The farthest either player is from his primary when the play begins is perhaps a couple of feet. The both land in his primary. The play is near him with not a terrible angle, although it would have been better had he not pinched. He anticipated and made a bad call but I think it's a stretch to say he shouldn't have the option of having a whistle here.

Good block, as the lead I try to leave the stuff up high to the slot and trail

I'm not saying that the T/C shouldn't have a primary whistle, but it depends on the kind of contact -- if it's from behind or on the head, I would expect the C to get it even in the L's half of the lane. I don't guess through players and I have two other officials on the floor.

The point I was trying to make is this -- they're way too close to an overlapping coverage area to jump in with "that's why you don't call across the lane." It just sounds like an incorrect or an overly picky use of a catchphrase. Matter of fact, I've never once heard that phrase used till this thread on a play actually occurring in the paint.

BTW, in our pregames: "In the paint, the L is king." With the knowledge that we're not reaching and guessing no matter where. Why? Because I don't see an invisible line drawn down the center of the lane and I can *see* the paint.

This is in the paint. I would call a foul from the L if I saw something that suggested it was a foul. I not only understand there is going to be contact on these type of plays, I expect it. I would expect more of a call from a C or the T in this case because they likely have a clean look at the block from the angle. I have no problem with the L making this call and I would not suggest they are the only one to make this kind of call in a boys game. And when you have a 7 footer, then you really have to be careful to just call something without some real displacement or if they get to the ball first up top.

Peace

A good friend has said what, to me, makes the most sense -- the dividing line needs to be somewhere and by putting it in the middle of the lane lets both the L and the C know that they have lane responsibility. And not to nitpick which side of the lane the play's on.

Up that high? I'm likely screened by the rim or the backboard or something else -- it's why I have a T/C. But if I see a foul, I'm getting it.

Meant to add, especially when it's across the paint. I don't like looking through the backboard for fouls.

Exactly. C has a perfect look at every element of this play: body, arms, lift, etc. You gotta know what you can't see at each position, trust your partners, and don't guess.

But that has nothing to do with the players' position on the floor and everything to do with the relative position of the offensive and defensive players. Outside officials need to be willing to come in if needed and leads need to know that sometimes that C/T has a better look and it's better to not guess.

This equation changes a bit in a 2-person game.

Falling a few points was to be exspected. Falling 15-20 points shows who you were getting the majority of your ratings from. Many of these older gentleman were living off the over-inflated assistance from there peers. Now that they have been in the tournament system for so long it probably doesn't even matter.

Agreed and that's what I meant when I originally posted about this being a good example of when not to call across the paint.

I understand Rich's point about this play being in the middle of the lane and something the L can come get if he needs to. But the stuff up top should be left to the outside guys. If there is body contact that needs to be called then the L may certainly have a look at it but that's not the case here. We don't no exactly what the L called here but it really doesnt matter b/c its clearly not a foul any way we look at it.

It's funny -- I had a couple of fouls in a previous game where I, as the lead, had nothing....but the trail/center came in and got something up high, from behind.

I won't lie -- I spent quite a bit of time replaying these plays in my head wondering if I could've been in a better spot, looking in a better place. In the end, I realized what you said -- some fouls just belong to the outside guys.

In 2-person, we work deeper on the end line to try to get some of these angles we need to get cause we don't have the same level of help outside. In 3-person, this just isn't necessary or even desirable.

The point I was trying to hammer home is that we cannot let a mechanics manual and primary areas define how we officiate plays. There's a reason we have secondary areas. And when someone takes it to the rack, we all need to have good position in case something happens that only we can see. And then trust our partners and don't guess.

I hear you, but I just do not see it translating in actual assignments. There are many other factors used as well. I know at least on the boys side other factors are used and ever region of the state has different standards based on where you are from and who is your "competition" for assignments. Heck in the last few years we had guys that hardly had any playoff experience and ended up at a place higher than those that had worked longer in the playoff system, but they were in a different area and they needed to find someone to fill those slots (rightfully so) and passed up guys like me. I knew the deal and was not mad at all. And all my ratings have been in the 90s for years. If it was about ratings, I would have been called for sure in the past. And right now I have maxed out in all my ratings and cannot go any further unless assigned a State Final. I just do not sit around and worry about what I cannot control and I cannot control what I am actually assigned.

Peace

Evidently, most posters have disagreed with the foul called and felt that the blocked shot was "clean". Additionally, most posters felt that the call was also made by either an incorrectly positioned "lead" or passed on by the T or C (whom should've had the best look). Given that observation--would you have had a side-bar convo with your crew (maybe after the game) to discuss this issue--perhaps inquiring exactly what the L saw that made it a legitimate foul? Or do you "let bygones be bygones"? Or do you just trust your crew that the call was properly made. As for me, we often post-game about "suspect calls"--I've been in post-game talks where an official thought he should have not made a call.