Chaminade (MO) vs. Paul VI (VA) (HS Basketball) (Video)
 

Same event, same channel, Chaminade v Paul VI with 16.3 left in the 3rd.

Please post the clip of this goaltending call. Looked like a legal block under NFHS rules to me.

Is this player in the act of shooting to you?

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Here's Nevada's play:

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Not in the act of shooting. Correct wave off by the official.

I have a blocked shot on the second video.

In other news, Tatum from Chaminade is a stud. #1 junior in the country.

It doesn't pass The eye test as I watch it, but when I see it in slow motion, I think I see both hands on the ball when the foul is called. I think I'm shooting two.

I am giving two points on the first one and shooting one FT.

On the GT play, it look like he took it to the backboard on the block. I do not have a GT on this play from the angle.

Peace

Don't you guys mean one?

I am sorry, yes I mean given them the points and shoot only one FT. I will correct the post.

Peace

Continuous Motion Video: Fouled in the Act of Shooting. Score the FG and award one FT.


Goaltending Video: First, I really cannot tell of the Ball was blocked before the Ball touched the Backboard, but under NFHS Rules the video shows a Defender legally touching the Ball. Because: The NFHS and NCAA Goaltending rules are slightly different. NFHS Rules allow a Player to touch the Ball after the FGA has made contact with the Backboard as long as the Ball is not "in its downward flight entirely above the basket ring level and has the possibility of entering the basket in flight." NCAA Rules state that once the Ball, during a FGA, touches the Backboard a Player cannot touch the Ball.

MTD, Sr.

Excellent answer by MTD on the GT play. That is the point I wished to make with this video clip.
Small caveat: I believe that a defender can legally touch the ball on a try even after it has contacted the backboard under NCAA rules if the ball has yet to rise completely above the level of the ring or has no chance to enter the basket.

I'm with JRut and MTDS on these.

1) shooting foul in HS, common foul in NCAA-M, prior to upward motion

I suppose just one would do the trick... ;)

To be goaltending on a field goal try, NFHS or NCAAM, the ball has to have the possibility of entering the basket. if it has no chance to go in it won't be goaltending on a field goal try.

under ncaam, if ANY PART of the ball is above the rim when the ball hits the backboard during a FG attempt, the ball is considered to be on its downward flight. Goaltending if touched by a player after hits backboard as long as ball has possibility of going in…

1st video count basket in nfhs, not in NCAAM-- 2nd-- looks like good block...

shooting foul in first video.

clean block in second video.

Same official made both these calls.

1) Travel.... ;)

Yes, I have him in the act of shooting.

2) Not a GT in NFHS.

Ncaam
 

As I said in the other thread - these crews are assigned by an ECAC college assignor and are following NCAAM rules.

Play 2, I do not have a GT.

Why do you have a different ruling between HS and and NCAA?

Are the NFHS and NCAA rules on act of shooting not the same?

NCAA:
NFHS:
Aside from minor grammatical and word form differences, these read identical.

A.R. 111. A1 is dribbling the ball and attempts to turn the corner at the top of the key to drive down the lane. B1 fouls A1 as A1 picks up his dribble. A1 then steps with his right foot and then pushes off with his left foot before beginning to raise his arm(s) or hand(s) to release the ball for a layup. The try is successful.

RULING: The foul occurred before the act of shooting began. Therefore, the goal should not count. Charge B1 with a personal foul and shoot appropriate free throws if Team A is in the bonus. The language of 5-1.10, “The try starts when the player begins the motion that normally precedes the release of the ball,” refers to the hand(s) or arm(s) in preparing to release the ball on a try for goal. Examples of the act of shooting motion include raising the ball with the hand(s) and or arm(s) to shoot a layup or jump shot or the downward motion of the hand(s) or arm(s) in completing a dunk or alley-oop play. This act of shooting motion does not include picking up the dribble, catching (gathering) the ball, or advancing on the court with one or both feet. (Rule 5-1.10 and 4-8.1)

Agree. But HS is no different than NCAA in this area. NBA is different, but that isn't what is being discussed.

Nfhs allows foot movement to be part of continuous motion definition. Put art 2 up if u get chance. NCAA is shorter time. Foot movement is not part of the continuous motion def.

For NCAA-M it is. The above case book play says so. By interpretation, a player is in the act when they start the upward motion.

NCAA-Men's memo dated February 17, 2014:

Play 2- A1 is dribbling the ball and attempts to turn the corner at the top of the key to drive down the lane. B1 fouls A1 as A1 picks up his dribble. A1 then steps with his right foot and then pushes off with his left foot before beginning to raise his arm(s) or hand(s) to release the ball for a layup. The try is successful.

Ruling- The foul occurred before the act of shooting began. Therefore, the goal should not count. Charge B1 with a personal foul and shoot appropriate free throws if Team A is in the bonus. Rule 5-1.10 and 4-8.1.

Comment-The language of 5-1.10, “The try starts when the player begins the motion that normally precedes the release of the ball”, refers to the hand(s)/arm(s) in preparing to release the ball on a try for goal. Examples of the act of shooting motion includes raising the ball with the hand(s) and/or arms to shoot a layup or jump shot or the downward motion of the hand(s) or arm(s) in completing a dunk or alley-oop play. This act of shooting motion does not include but is not limited to picking up the dribble, catching (gathering) the ball, or advancing on the court with one or both feet

The case book appears to have been updated off-cycle this past summer.

If my memory serves me correcty (and sometimes it doesn't anymore, :p), there was a long thread discussing this A.R. last year. The discussion centered around the sentence: "B1 fouls A1 as A1 picks up his dribble."

The question was: What does "picks up his dribble" mean? We know (NFHS and NCAA) that a Player that is dribbling the ball cannot be in the Act of Shooting. A1 must end his dribble befofre the Act of Shooting can begin. Many of us thought the wording in the A.R. was poor, but that the A.R.'s Ruling implied that A1 had not ended his dribble before he was fouled therefore he was not in the Act of Shootng. What Camron is saying (and it is not my intent to put words in his mouth) and I concur that the NCAA A.R. is consistent with a Player being fouled before ending his dribble has not been fouled in the Act of Shooting which both NFHS and NCAA Rules tell us.

It should be further stated that there is more than one way for a Player who is dribbling the Ball to end his Dribble: 1) touching the ball simultaneously with both hands; 2) catching the ball with both hands; and 3) touching the ball with one hand and then the other hand before the ball returns to the floor, are just a few ways for a Player to end his Dribble.

MTD, Sr.

I don't have my NFHS and NCAA Rules Books in front of me but Continuous Motion and Foot Movement Requirements are the same in both rules sets.

MTD, Sr.

We have been explicitly told that "raising the ball with the hand(s) and/or arms to shoot a layup" needs to happen for it to be considered continuous motion.

Whoever is telling you that is just flat out wrong. And you can quote me too him. The NCAA Rules Committees moved the Act of Shooting Definitions from Rule 4 to Rule 5 (I do not know why) some years ago, but they have not changed in the last 50 years (both NFHS and NCAA). The NFHS and NCAA Men's and Women's defintions of Continuous Motion are the same.

The phrase in red was the NCAA Men's Rules Committee's ill fated attempt (due to lack of understanding of the defintion of Guarding) last school year to limit Defender's right to Establish a LGP against an Offensive Player who was dribbling toward the his basket and has since been recinded for this school year. It was part of the definition of Guarding, not the Act of Shooting or Continuous Motion definitions.

MTD, Sr.

First name "John", last name "Adams". Lives in Indianapolis I believe. Has a buddy named Art Hyland.

I know who they are I don't care if they stand on their heads and spit wooden nickels. They cannot, by Rule, Casebook Plays, and Approved Rulings for at least the past 50 years, defend their postion. They are starting to take stupid pills from the Women's Rules Committee and parroting the opinions of coaches (and fans) who have no knowledge and understanding of the rules.

MTD, Sr.

And this will help me in my game tonight how?

What it means is that officials need to stand up and start asserting themselves as a group and call out the yahoos that are making these stupid rulings.

MTD, Sr.

You have my vote and my backing. Let me know when the campaign will begin. ;)

I agree with that.

I also would not put the player in this play on the line in a HS game.

I don't interpret the HS rule to allow the player to keep moving and get a shot off unless they've shown some hint of trying to shoot the ball (arms starting to go up or trying to bring the arms up with the ball, for example) before the foul.

As written in my first post in this thread. I agree with this position elaborated by Camron.

I agree with Cameron. I also would not rule this foul to be in the act of shooting.