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-   -   Need some help on a blocked shot (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/99069-need-some-help-blocked-shot.html)

VaTerp Fri Jan 16, 2015 12:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by so cal lurker (Post 950576)
Me thinks that many of the responses you get are going to depend upon the picture the reader builds from the words. It seems to me (not a ref) that the details on the contact are going to matter a lot here on how they tangled. If the blocker was going up and over such that there was no way to block the shot without subsequently wiping out the shooter, I think that is pretty easily a foul. If there is minor contact from two players who fall because they are running at speed that seems to me not a foul. And there is a whole lot of grey in between those.
Agreed.

I'm in the camp that is more likely to pass on a foul that involves a clean block up top with some contact below but this is a HTBT situation.

I will say though that the fact the play from the defender "from behind" makes it more likely that I have a foul on this play.

But again tough to say with out seeing the specific play in question.

ETA- And as others have suggested, the level of play is also a significant factor here. With bigger and more athletic players you are going to see, and assigners and coaches expect, more contact to be deemed marginal or incidental.

JugglingReferee Fri Jan 16, 2015 12:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amesman (Post 950601)
Jug: How far do you take the above on typical 1-on-1 defending a shot? Typically these are HTBT situations but I'm looking for guidance on when to whistle after a "clean" block that gets all ball but follows through with relatively minor arm or even torso bumping —well after the shot has been snuffed and ball and shooter are on their way back down. We're not talking wrist-hacking or arm-obliterating here.

I've been counseled back-and-forth by more veteran refs than me both ways. But most seem to hold once there's a clean block and the shot's clearly not basket-bound, ignore most contact afterward unless egregious. Yet sometimes there's significant contact. Thoughts?
If there is contact after the block, but A still lands with ease, then I pass on it. Arm contact rarely, if ever, affects a landing. Torso bumping will though. At higher levels, I let more go. And each game is different - it depends on how the game is going, and if similar contact has been called at other times in the game.

Egregious contact warranting a foul would let too much contact go, imho. (Thinking of how basketball is played in my area.) It is a htbt issue, as you say.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Fri Jan 16, 2015 12:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amesman (Post 950601)
Jug: How far do you take the above on typical 1-on-1 defending a shot? Typically these are HTBT situations but I'm looking for guidance on when to whistle after a "clean" block that gets all ball but follows through with relatively minor arm or even torso bumping —well after the shot has been snuffed and ball and shooter are on their way back down. We're not talking wrist-hacking or arm-obliterating here.

I've been counseled back-and-forth by more veteran refs than me both ways. But most seem to hold once there's a clean block and the shot's clearly not basket-bound, ignore most contact afterward unless egregious. Yet sometimes there's significant contact. Thoughts?

Here is the answer to your question: If the defender did not block the shot, would you call a foul? If you would then the defender fouled even though he blocked the shot. The only clean block is one in which the defender did not foul the shooter.

MTD, Sr.

Ref_in_Alberta Fri Jan 16, 2015 01:13pm
Airborne shooter has the right to land safely. Defender has the responsibility to not take away the RSBQ of the offense. In theory... players put or taken to the floor due to contact 99.98% of the time makes said contact illegal and therefore a foul should be called.

bob jenkins Fri Jan 16, 2015 02:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ref_in_Alberta (Post 950622)
Airborne shooter has the right to land safely. Defender has the responsibility to not take away the RSBQ of the offense. In theory... players put or taken to the floor due to contact 99.98% of the time makes said contact illegal and therefore a foul should be called.
I think this is key. Sometimes, it's the legal contact on the ball (still in the player's hand) that causes enough of an effect on balance to take the player to the floor.

Johnny Ringo Fri Jan 16, 2015 02:01pm
This is an action my partners and I have discussed at length in the past.

In order to get to a position to block shot and the result after that blocked shot results in contact to the offensive player attempting a try - IMO this is an advantage to the defense.

Especially, if there is enough contact that sends the offensive player to the floor.

I would call a foul.

Camron Rust Fri Jan 16, 2015 08:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 950560)
I have always believed that if they get the ball first, unless they do something else or not basketball related to cause contact, we should not call a foul.

Some disagree with this, but if you see good athletes you will call a lot of fouls on them if we always expect perfect blocks with no contact.

Peace
Really good athletes block the shot without creating such contact. ;)

No, I don't call fouls for minor contact in the process of blocking a shot, but knocking someone down from behind in the process of blocking a shot is too much.

JRutledge Sat Jan 17, 2015 02:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 950667)
Really good athletes block the shot without creating such contact. ;)

No, I don't call fouls for minor contact in the process of blocking a shot, but knocking someone down from behind in the process of blocking a shot is too much.
I did not say they created the contact. When you have guys coming in hard to the basket and someone is in front of them, some contact is going to take place. And falling to the floor is not a good judge if the shooter is coming hard into bigger bodies or a lot of bodies. It happen tonight in my games where a smaller kid came into a much bigger kid (size and height) and clearly was displaced by a legal defender (fell hard). We did not call a foul. No one said a word. ;)

Peace

Adam Sat Jan 17, 2015 10:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 950676)
I did not say they created the contact. When you have guys coming in hard to the basket and someone is in front of them, some contact is going to take place. And falling to the floor is not a good judge if the shooter is coming hard into bigger bodies or a lot of bodies. It happen tonight in my games where a smaller kid came into a much bigger kid (size and height) and clearly was displaced by a legal defender (fell hard). We did not call a foul. No one said a word. ;)

Peace
Which is clearly not what the OP was talking about.

asdf Sat Jan 17, 2015 10:59am
Airborne shooter ends up on the floor. How did he end up on the floor?

Was it because he was out of control and could have ended up on the floor by his own doing? If so, then the contact could be ruled incidental and you have nothing but a split lip.

If he was under control and would have returned to the floor in a normal fashion, but didn't, then the contact is a foul.

We get a split second to decide this.

This is what we all signed up for ladies/gents.

JRutledge Sat Jan 17, 2015 06:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam (Post 950684)
Which is clearly not what the OP was talking about.
Are we sure about that? The OP tried to paint a picture, but that does not mean if we saw the play in question, that we would not have a different picture of what actually happened. That is why I said this was a HTBT situation where the play in question could have been affected by the size of the players and how fast and hard they were running to the basket as well.

Peace

just another ref Sat Jan 17, 2015 06:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by nmanzie (Post 950559)
White is on a breakaway steal and goes for a two-handed layup. While in the air, Green comes from behind and slaps the ball (and only ball) forward and out of bounds. On the way down, green and white tangle and fall to the floor. Green caused the tangle by having more speed than white in this situation, but touched all ball first.

This matters. This doesn't. Based on this description, I have a foul.

Pantherdreams Sat Jan 17, 2015 07:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 950612)
Here is the answer to your question: If the defender did not block the shot, would you call a foul? If you would then the defender fouled even though he blocked the shot. The only clean block is one in which the defender did not foul the shooter.

MTD, Sr.
I understand what you are saying here but its the block that causes the complicating factors.

1- Impacts advantage disadvantage. Contact now cannot impact ability to make shot or cleanly release ball. IME Now you are only able to impact shooters ability to land or stay in the play to disadvantage them.

2 - When the contact takes place is now a huge issue:
A) Same as always whether or not the contact happens while the player is still a shooter is key.
B) If they ball is still in play and we haven't ruled/called the ball out of bounds. Because now anything that is not flagrant is incidental.

Camron Rust Sun Jan 18, 2015 03:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 950721)
Are we sure about that? The OP tried to paint a picture, but that does not mean if we saw the play in question, that we would not have a different picture of what actually happened.
Peace
Pretty much, yes.

You've flipped the play from one where the defender was trailing on a fast break into one where the shooter drove into a defender already in front of them.

Not sure how one person could have the defender running in behind the shooter and the other would have the defender in front other the shooter with the shooter coming in hard towards the defender.


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