Wrong Way to Start the 4th
 

Middle School basketball can be an interesting laboratory.

Never saw this before, but I'm the R setting up to inbound the ball at the start of the 4th. I point (with verbal color) the correct direction as the players come to the ball, and also just before I give the ball to A1. I also correctly put the thrower between myself and his basket. And my partner is taking up a spot as the new L under A's basket.

Nonetheless, Team B is asleep and setting up to play defense on the wrong end of the court. Team A goes right along for the ride, but I can't tell for sure if the thrower and his pass recipient are aware of this or not, so thinking they may want to take advantage and score an easy bucket, I put the ball at A1's disposal.

...And of course A2 gets the inbound and starts dribbling toward B's basket. Doh! Team A gets a shot off and misses. At this point I'm thinking, "I let A go the wrong direction, so to be fair maybe I should let B go the wrong direction, too, and hope that they figure it out in the process." They didn't....and scored, and then finally I blew the whistle. My partner and I credited the basket to A, and then we went the correct direction.

My question is....the rule states that when by mistake, the officials permit the teams to go the wrong direction (usually this happens after the opening tip or sometimes after halftime), when recognized, count all the stats to that point and just go the correct direction. But what happens when the officials don't make a mistake and the teams go the wrong direction anyway? Did we do this right, or should I have been more insistent before the quarter started when it was clear Team B was playing defense on the wrong end? Or maybe after one (vice two) possessions we should have blown it dead to correct it?

I actually have no idea what the proper procedure or protocol is here. Looking for some advice so I do it right the next time this happens. Thanks.

Should have a backcourt violation before anything else weird happens. Take this opportunity to get everyone lined up in proper direction.

If it's a middle school game, and I think there's confusion, I probabaly wait until I feel confident that both teams know the proper direction. I really think MS is different from a varsity game here, and I would feel bad putting a ball in play if I think/know something is off.

I couldn't tell from the OP, but if the officials know what's up, then the natural progression of the game will stop at worst after one made basket. Either there will be a backcourt violation, or the team who incorrectly shot at their own hoop would have to be the team to put the ball in play

Your concerned about proper procedure in a middle school game? I cant remember the last time I did a middle school game, but I would handle the situation as follows. First, I would have told B they were defending the wrong basket before I ever allowed A to inbound the ball. If the A coach doesn't like that, too bad for him. He will either get over it or he will get a tech. Second, if you knew they were going the wrong direction, and you had told them the correct direction, then when B got the ball, they were in team control in the front court, and they took the ball into the back court before they scored. If I had allowed the situation to get to the point you had (which I would not have) I would have stopped it with an over and back call. You might have had one on team A as well, depending upon where they inbounded the ball.

Coach....that is a great, great point and a shockingly simple way to end this mess early. Thanks!

Conversely, if he passes into the backcourt to begin with, I suppose I could just start a 10-second count. A missed shot wouldn't end it because it wouldn't be a try. If the ball goes in, blow the whistle, credit the basket to B, and then we go the right way. If B rebounds a miss and goes the other way, they'll advance their way right into their own backcourt violation.

Yup. Knew there was a better way than the way I did it. Got this one in the brain bank for later.

I'm concerned about proper procedure in all my games.

I'm a bit confused by this paragraph. When you say they didn't, does that mean they shot at the hoop that A just attempted a shot at? Because if so, then that means they did it right, and I don't know why you gave the points to team A. If they didn't, then crossing mid court should've ended the play with a backcourt violation

I meant Team B didn't realize they were headed to Team A's basket after Team A shot at Team B's basket.

But water under the bridge. I realize I completely kicked it. Should have had a backcourt violation on A right after the inbound. I was overthinking the "officials permit the teams to go the wrong direction" rule, which didn't even apply in hindsight.

We do not like it when Coaches want to officiate the game for us. We do not coach the players in the game we officiate. We don't know if Team A is trying to fool Team B in order to get an uncontested layup.


I would say you were very very wrong for whacking a HC who may have set up a play as I described in my paragraph above.


You and your partner were 50% correct. Score the FG for Team B, and then put them in the correct direction.

MTD, Sr.

At any point at any level, when you realize A is attacking the wrong basket and B is defending that wrong basket, you whistle it dead and fix it.

I disagree. There is no provision in the rules for us to stop the game when nothing has happened. When a violation has occurred, or a basket scored at the wrong hoop, then I will blow it dead and straighten things out.

But something has happened. For some reason, everyone involved in the game has become disoriented. This is quite a significant thing.

4-5-4: If by mistake officials permit a team to go the wrong direction, when discovered all points scored, fouls committed, and time consumed shall count as if each team had gone the proper direction. Play shall resume with each team going the proper direction based on bench location.



It says when discovered resume going the proper direction. You don't wait for any certain thing to happen before you stop the game.

+1

MTD, Sr.

If by mistake the officials... In this scenario, or at least the one I'm referring to, the officials knew the correct direction. That article is to clarify what to do if players and officials screw up and it is not noticed until multiple trips up and down the court have occurred.

You'd have to give me all the details of your scenario.

What johnny said, plus if A heads the wrong direction but does not commit a back court violation (i.e. they catch the ball in the backcourt and head towards B's basket) I'm blowing everything dead, lining everyone up correctly and giving A the ball at the POI. I'd rather do that using my 2-3 powers than have to deal with points being scored going the wrong way.

2-3 is not necessary here. This is covered in the rules. 4-5-4

Even better!

You are correct. Such situations happen when the officials line the jumpers up facing the wrong directions. When the officials are aware and have followed the proper mechanics, yet the teams go the wrong direction a violation, foul, time-out request, or goal must occur in order for the officials to stop play.

So was the initial throw-in into A's FC?

Even if there was no BC violation and things played out the same, you should have given B their points. They knew which basket they were playing for, and you gave their points to A. If you let this play out, don't penalize the team that figures it out.

MTD, I would not advocate this philosophy in HS or college games. In a middle school game, I don't care if team A has a designed play or not. Team B will be well aware of which direction each team is supposed to go in before I allow the ball to be inbounded. Second, the coach would not be getting a tech for setting up a play to confuse the opposition, they would be getting a tech for not accepting the explanation I give them and refusing to move on. At any level game, the coach can be upset about a play, and may even be given an explanation. However, once that explanation is given it doesn't matter whether he agrees with it or not, or even if the explanation follows the rules, he isn't going to continue to complain about the call without consequence. If he doesn't like the explanation or it isn't correct by rule, he can take it up with the assignor after the game is over. Finally, in the OP, it is pretty clear neither team has any idea as to which direction they are supposed to be going, so your whole designed play theory doesn't apply to this situation.

I had a coach once ask me not to point the direction in order to help him run this play. I was amazed that a coach would even think to ask such a thing.

I made sure I emphasized and re-emphasized the direction we were going to start the quarter. B didn't fall for it - they would've had to have been completely brain dead at that point to fall for it.

Coach was unhappy, like I cared.

"Coach, I am required to indicate the color and direction of the throw."

I just went through the NFHS Basketball Officials Manual and no where could I find the requirement for the R to indicate the Teams' directions prior to the Jump Ball to start the game or any OT (I know, a bad bad word) Period (the IAABO Officials Manual does require the R to indicate both verbally and with a direction signal the team's Baskets) or the AP Arrow to start anyother Period. Just make sure that you have the Jumpers in the correct halves of the Center Circle and a) that you have the Thrower between you and his/her team's basket prior to the AP TI and b) your partners adjust themselves to the locations of the other players.

It is not that uncommon for JrHS coaches to run such deception plays; in fact I would say that is where one will find this type of play being run about 99.99% of the time. When this type of situation presents itself, the officials have to take a somewhat of a wait and see attitude.

MTD, Sr.

Nope, they should point a direction every time and not be an accomplice in such BS.

Rich:

Since when is it BS for a team to run a play that is deceptive to its opponent as long as it does not commit any infractions of the rules. Furthermore, we as veteran officials should be using correct mechanics and not coaching teamsm and mentoring less experience officials to use correct mechanics.

Let the coaches coach and the officials officate.

MTD, Sr.

Yes, we did know the correct direction. I'm with MTD Sr.'s assessment that my partner and I were 50% correct. First, if we were so aware of the situation, we should have had a violation of some sort. By not recognizing this, that is the point that we "made a mistake" in continuing to allow the teams to go the wrong direction. So once recognized at that point, we should have credited the stats that accumulated and corrected the disorientation. The basket that B scored at A's basket should have counted for B. Oops.

Thanks to all for the input. Very educational.

Officials and coaches who know me know that I will not think twice about whacking a coach.

BUT if I screwed the poach (as umpires would say) and I it is a situation taht I cannot reverse then I am going to let the coach chew on my tuchus a little.

I can assure you that in a college game if you screw up a coach's play and then you whack him because you didn't like him complaining about it, you won't be officiating at the level for very long.

MTD, Sr.

As would I. However, I would allow him some extra chewing before I addressed the situation with him. I might give him some extra time to vent his frustration to me when I go to him and before I give him an explanation, or if he is addressing me when I am table side in front of his bench, I might give him a trip or two up and down the court. If he is yelling at me across the court or being an obvious jackass, then he wont be getting any extra rope, even if I was completely wrong on the call in question. Once he has my explanation, or I have told him we are done discussing the play, he has two choices, move on or get whacked.

Thanks for the advice, but there is no need for you to worry though, my college schedule has been fine and will continue to grow.

Agree that game management dictates that you clear this up before starting the throw in but if you didn't then there's not much you can do until the ball becomes dead. This could be when a basket is made in the wrong goal (award Team A two points, give Team A the ball for a throw in, and get them going in the right way), after a 10 second count (keep in mind you would keep counting even if Team A throws the ball at the basket as this is not considered a try), or several other possible stoppages of play.Under most circumstances in sanctioned school ball I would not "coach" the team that they are headed the wrong way once the ball became live but in the rigt situation I could be tempted. For the most part I think you say it loud and say it often before putting the ball in play and hope either the players or the coaches get it quick.

I don't follow the arguement that this is an officials error (in this OP) because they made it very ckear which direction they were supposed to be heading. If Team A inbounds the ball and starts the wrong way its a player/coach error regardless of where the defense lines up. As stated by others, the NFHS procedure being cited is for times when the officials actually screw up the throwin on their own accord.

First, there is no circumstance where you award team A two points and then give team A the ball. I'm sure that's not what you meant. Second when a team is attacking the wrong basket and the other team is defending that wrong basket, when you realize it, you stop it then. You don't have to wait for any certain thing to happen.

As posted earlier in this thread:

4-5-4: If by mistake officials permit a team to go the wrong direction, when discovered all points scored, fouls committed, and time consumed shall count as if each team had gone the proper direction. Play shall resume with each team going the proper direction based on bench location.

I 90% agree. I would just argue that you stop action when you determine you've allowed it to get to the point of a mistake, not necessarily immediately if you made no mistake to begin with. So in my OP, I saw a team was defending the wrong basket, but there had been no officials' mistake to that point. I would say that once I realize I have failed to call some kind of applicable violation, now I have made a mistake in allowing the teams to continue going the wrong direction, and 4-5-4 applies at that point.

Alternatively, if there is a violation, a foul, or a goal at the wrong basket, now we have another opportunity to point and verbalize the proper direction (maybe a little more deliberately this time).

As soon as the teams are playing "normal" basketball at the wrong ends, then stop it and fix it. Otherwise, someone is going to realize it and have an uncontested layup at the "right" end (or, you'll have to stop it with a violation -- and that doesn't make any sense if the player figured out the problem).

If not immediately, when??

You're gonna have to stop play sooner or later. Why not sooner?

Because as has been stated before, I feel if no error on the officials' part, you let the chips fall where they may. In my case, I didn't know if Team A was prepped to get an easy basket or not. I also should have been thinking, "they're equally as prepped to commit a backcourt or 10-second violation."

Either way, in most cases, something is going to cause my partner(s) or I to have a whistle pretty soon, so play will be stopped sooner rather than later regardless.

It isn't necessary for an official's error to be the cause of the problem for it to be your problem. If you say white's ball and point the wrong way and blue goes to that end to defend, that's all sorts of bad, and everybody knows what happened and why it happened. BUT if A1 picks up a loose ball at the division line and head toward B's basket and the whole B team sprints down ahead of him and sets up a defense, all for no reason at all, if you realize it, you stop and fix it. Whether that's 2 seconds later or 5 minutes later.

Period

Yep, that's what I meant - B gets points, A gets ball


This is not a 4-5-4 situation. In this case the officials did not "permit" a team to go the wrong way. The officials had CORRECTLY indicated to both teams the CORRECT way to go but they went the wrong way.

If we incorrectly apply 4-5-4 to this situation as some are suggesting then by extention the refs should stop the game on a take-away if for some reason the teams run the wrong way. I've never seen a team stopped from scoring in the wrong basket but I have seen the refs stop play after a basket to get everyone back on the right track and make sure the right team inbounds the ball afterwards.

Its as simple as cause and effect. Ask yourself who "caused" the teams to set up and go the wrong way. If it was the ref (pointed the wrong way, lined up facing the wrong direction for a jump ball, put the ball in play under the wrong basket) then I agree that 4-5-4 applies. But in the OP the refs did nothing to influence where the teams took up positions or which basket they ran towards after the throw in.

And what if the situation in the OP was exactly the same except that A2 ran to his own basket and scored? I guess for the sake of Team B we should apply 4-5-4 and stop the game before he scores since this must have been "caused" by the same "error" that the refs made in the original post.

Show me the part where it says it matters what the original cause of the problem is. It says "If by mistake officials permit a team to go the wrong way....." It tells you how to deal with the aftermath. If you see that both teams are actively playing the wrong way, and you don't stop it, then you are permitting it, which is indeed a mistake.

Stop posting this. You are dead wrong.

I even had a strange game several years ago in which a team wanted to win by at least 4, but not more than 10 due to tiebreakers for playoff seeding. They were attempting to avoid facing a specific team in the opening round.

Guess what happened in the last minute when this team was leading by 12? Yep, they purposely tried to score for the opponents and were being defended.

At any reasonably high level of play (any level where the players/coaches should know better), assuming my crew and I have used proper mechanics to indicate the direction of play, I'm going to let play continue and see what happens. Our role is to observe the game, determine the facts of the game, and apply the rules to those events.

If A throws the ball into the FC and takes it into the BC, we have a violation. If A throws the ball into the BC, we start a count and eventually a violation if the ball remains in A's TC in the BC for ten seconds. If A1 throws the ball toward B's basket and gets his own "rebound", we may have a violation for traveling or illegal dribble depending on this circumstances. If A is "successful" in throwing the ball into B's basket, B will score two points and A will have a BCELTI. If B is also clueless, they'll think they have a throw-in and may attempt to make the ball live; if this occurs, B will be warned for delay per 4-47-3.

The point is that we don't really need to tell the teams that they may be confused. The rules do perfectly well to handle situations like this. It's almost impossible for more than 15-20 seconds to go by without a violation occurring in a situation like this. When that violation occurs, call it. If the players are confused, you explain the call and they'll quickly realize that they were going the wrong way.

Couple of things here. First, the team who wanted to win by no more than 10 went up by more than that with plans to work it out at the end? And the other team knew about all this, took exception to it, and their competitive nature made them do whatever they could to ruin the other team's night? Second, if they're doing this, it's no longer basketball. Under the definition/description/explanation of THE GAME it says it consists of a team trying to throw the ball into its own basket. If it comes down to what you describe above, I'm thinking you might call the game and go home.

Or if we don't go for that, it really doesn't matter. Say the words "by mistake" are the key. If they start in the wrong direction, you step in one time and tell everybody, then it's no longer by mistake. Play on, but I don't see how the game could proceed very well due to the imminent threat of a backcourt violation.

Amen.

Curious. Did they achieve their 4-10 point desired window? If so, that's one of the cooler BB stories I've heard in a while.

Reminds me of NFL Week 17 about 20 years ago when in the NFC, seeding came down to overall points for (PF); something like seven higher tiebreakers were all dead even. So a couple of teams were just slingin' it downfield every chance they got to get as many points as possible. It was wild.

Very well said, we aren't trying to dictate or determine intentions, only actions. As soon as something happens to cause the ball to become dead, then we can attempt to straighten everyone out.

If both teams are confused, please don't issue a DOG warning. It's neither necessary nor prudent. Every time a team intentionally puts the ball in the wrong basket, you'll likely need to blow the whistle to straighten things out. (The exception being Nevada's situation).

Calling a DOG warning here is the very difinition of OOO, IMO, when both teams are confused.

I'm not from Missouri but...
 

I can't show you what does not exist. We may "permit" a lot of things to happen during a game but that doesn't make it our fault when the outcome is less than desired. If we make an error then we should correct it as prescribed in the rules but not everything that we "permit" is an error. Sometimes its just bad basketball.

This reminds me of a middle school game I worked last year. A1 gets a rebound at his own goal and passes the ball out to A2 who turns and starts running to the wrong end. When he gets about 10 feet from the division line my partner jumps in front of him, puts both hands out and says "no, no, no; you are going the wrong way". I guess we should all be glad he didn't "permit" that mistake.

The difference between how you are applying 4-5-4 and how I am applying it is the way we are defining the word "mistake" and the emphasis you are placing on the word "permit".

You seem to be saying that although the officials did everything they were supposed to do because a enough people (10 players & 2 coaches) have screwed up which basket is their then the refs have made a mistake and permitted them to play at the wrong basket.

I am saying that if the refs have done what they were supposed to do (and they had in the OP) then it is on the coaches and the players to get it right. Again, let me clarify that if I saw them all setting up at the wrong ends I would try to tell them before putting the ball in play but I'm not delaying the game long because it ultimately rests on the coach to tell his players what to do, not me.

I have looked through several years of interpretations and reread that rule several times to find anything that supports your position but its just not there. If you can show me I will gladly change the way I apply this rule. If, by mistake, I permit the teams to go the wrong way then I will certainly stop the game to correct it. But as they are currently written, the rules do not allow us to halt the game just because the teams decide to go the wrong way.

Why did they even shoot at all when up by 9 or 10???

No, I'm not advocating this. If one kid goes the wrong way a backcourt call will take care of it. But if I don't call the backcourt violation and all ten players run to the wrong end and set up to play offense and defense and then I realize the problem, that's when I'll stop things. And if they tell me at that point that they know what they're doing and one team is now trying to avoid a certain point spread and the opponent has decided to try to stop them from that, it's okay with me.

The more I think about it, this would be kind of interesting to watch. A halfcourt game. One team holds the ball, trying not to score. Then, if the other team makes a steal, that team tries to score in that basket on that same end of the court, hindered by the defense and a 9.5 second shot clock, as it were. Also, if a player has used his dribble, he won't be able to go for an offensive rebound because it would be a violation.

It really is interesting to think about what would and what wouldn't be a violation if a team is attacking the wrong basket. Legally speaking, what would would ordinarily be a try would be an interrupted dribble in this scenario. So, in the situation of what would ordinarily be an unsuccessful try, the original shooter cannot touch the ball before it touches the ground. If the player makes an "attempt" at the goal after having dribbled, the player has committed an illegal dribble the moment the ball leaves the hand. If an offensive player fouls a defensive player during the "rebound", it is a team-control foul and the defensive team will not shoot free throws.

I think when the player throws at the wrong goal, you consider it a pass unless that same player is first to touch after it hits the board. Then it becomes a dribble, possibly an illegal dribble. Team control foul on the rebound is one thing I hadn't thought about. The possibility of a ten second violation while a "shot" is in the air would be interesting.

I can't believe we're discussing this. :D

4-31 defines a pass as movement of the ball caused by a player who throws, bats, or rolls the ball to another player. Throwing the ball at the opponent's basket is not a pass. It is the start of a dribble which may become interrupted if he is not the first to touch the ball after it has touched the floor. Since this must be a dribble, a violation for an illegal dribble occurs the moment the ball leaves the player's hand if the player had previously dribbled.

Don't we have another thread that deals with this?

In any event, Case Book 9.5, first situation, tells us that if A1 ends the dribble and then throws the ball against the opponents' backboard, it constitutes another dribble, . . . "provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it strikes . . . the board."

Also, please take a look at the definition of an interrupted dribble, and 9-5-2 & 3, regarding an illegal dribble. If the ball is touched by an opponent, or touches or is touched by another player, it is the end of a dribble, not the cause of an interrupted dribble.

I'm invoking "The Game" (before rule 1). If the team is not trying "to throw the ball into its own basket and to prevent the other team from scoring" I'm ending it and letting the conference / district / state association decide what to do.

Because they had to win by at least 4 or the opposing team would take the cover seed in the playoffs. So the team was worried that a 9 point lead could seriously cost them if the opponent scored a couple of quick baskets. Guess they figured it was easier and safer to be ahead by 12 and then just score in the wrong basket.