New thread: Karl Hess out of ACC
 

Since the relevant parts of the previous thread got clouded up, here's a new one.

What are your thoughts on one of the best but most polarizing officials in the country being ousted but the ACC?

I think if he displayed behavior which was unacceptable, the fact that he may be one of the best is irrelevant.

I agree with this. People skills are important.

I spoke with 3 different officials today who all said Hess has horrible people skills and is a little (or alot) touched in the head.

If the above is true, it is pretty amazing that he has been able to rise as far as he has. Poor judgement off the court and poor people skills would doom 90% of officials. He had to have a pretty strong backer somewhere along the way.

Six Final Fours…..so yeah I guess he did.

…..and (as reported by ESPN) removing himself from the remaining games on his schedule in both the SEC and the AAC.

It must be that he admitted to such comments or similar comments. And either way, you cannot say those things and get away with that to most people or in an educational setting.

Peace

When people step on their own hot dog it almost always involves temperament and behavior..You can have the best hard skills/technical skills but if you are a PITA to deal with, people will tire of your act and cut you loose!!

Yes, he admitted to the statement.

Again, this profession/avocation/career (for many) that we all do has now become so microscopic that its never remembered for the 99 things we did right (on & off the court), its the one thing that we don't do right that hangs over our heads. . .

That being said, in the case of Hess, its just where 1) he has a past history of acrimonious actions, or things that are frowned upon, 2) he has never been apologetic about any of them, and 3) when you're on tape and its validated of your actions, there's nothing where you can be defended. . .

More than that, the instance where this particular individual just happened to be a person in a position of leverage and weight with the ACC, that just served as the proverbial nail in the coffin.

Think about it for a moment - to give an example (and I actually looked this up), when Valentine had his "episode" with Mick Cronin of Cincinnati, since that game, Valentine has not had Cincy again anywhere - now, in the very small world of officiating, and especially one of his stature, does anyone think that's sheer coincidence?

I mean, we had an owner of a professional franchise stripped of his ownership by a league (the NBA) and the legal system due to saying racial comments and it being exposed through the wonders of telecommunications. . .

The only salvaging thing that Hess did was to remove himself from the other games so as to not bring attention to the people in stripes, and it serving as a distraction to any game. . .

Valentine did not use a racial slur when emotions were high Thats the key.

And that is why the whole situation and our PC culture is ridiculous. It is ok to insult somebody by calling them a dumb mother ****er, but it isn't ok to call the same person a dumb insert racial/ethnic/religious slur here mother ****er. Give me a freaking break, both are insults, saying either to a fan should be considered unprofessional, and neither should result in Hess being fired.

Both would get me fired from my lower division conferences, why shouldn't it get a Big Dawg fired from a Big Boy conference?

I'd get fired in a heartbeat if I ever called a coach or fan either of those things.
And any coach that called me either of those things in a game would find that his/her presence was no longer required that day.

I think a suspension is merited, not firing, unless it has happened before and he has already been disciplined for it before. I am pretty sure Hess just didn't single the guy out and say what he said for no reason. The guy was probably acting like an ******* the entire game. Was it professional behavior on Hess's part, of course not, but if the criteria is that we have to be completely professional 100% of the time, than there wouldn't be anybody left to officiate the games. Which brings me to another point, what kind of douche bag insults another person all game long and then cries on social media when the person responds?

If I said that at the lower level college or HS level, I would be fired and likely suspended for my license. That is not a PC world, that is a good world where you should not be able to say those things and it be OK. If I did so at my job I would deal with the right people hearing or knowing, I would be suspended and probably would lose some other licenses or deal with a real complaint if I said such a thing or made such a reference.

Peace

This.

Believe me, I am one of those officials who doesn't believe we have to take sh!t from coaches and fans and stand there stoned face. I am very sarcastic, and I have a quick, biting wit. Unfortunately, that may work well at parties or shut up loudmouths at sports bars, but it's not what will keep me employed as an official (not great for marriages either). If he leaves the bigoted part of his statement out, then I see it being only a suspension. But he threw in the word "Eygptian". What is the purpose of that? Would it have been alright to say "fat", or "retarded", or "crackhead", or "orphaned" or "brown a$$"? Hess crossed a line.

Hess is from Virginia, so I know a lot of officials who know him personally, on and off the court. So far it has been unanimous that Hess does not socially interact on the same wave length as the general populous. He is known for making statements that only he finds funny, that most others find offensive or inappropriate.

So I am guessing this is not the first time Hess has said something to somebody (supervisor/official/AD/Coach/school president/fan/ball boy) that was out of line. This may just be the last straw, and a straw that would have been the first and last for many of us.

This is exactly what a PC world entails. Yes, there are many things that can be said that are offensive....so what? Other than having their feelings hurt, how exactly is a person injured by having offensive things said to them? A world where people are not allowed to say offensive things, sounds rather Orwellian to me.

Like it or not, officiating is a customer service job, and while I can certainly say anything I want to say while working my job, my employer is not required to keep me employed. That concept applies to independent contractors as well.

When someone suggest Hess go to jail, we can discuss Orwelle, IMO.

I'll just say, living where I live, the word "PC" often comes from people who want an excuse to be bigoted or hateful and not be called out on it.

That is fine, I am just trying to find out where the line is. To me the modifier attached to my example of dumb mother ****er, be it brown, black, fat, retarded, jewish, Egyptian, etc. would not make me any more or less offended than just being told I was a dumb mother ****er.

Actually, I beg to differ. I have noticed that there is an infinite supply of newer and younger officials below me who want my games. I see them at camp every year. Makes me realize that I have to be completely professional 100% of the time.

Fortunately for me, 100% professional is the standard that I choose to uphold. Maybe it's my military background, but to me that's the right way to do business.

Not at all what I am advocating. I think people should be called out whenever they say things that are bigoted, hateful, or offensive. I just don't understand why there is so much extra outrage because the slur was racial/ethnic than there would have been if he just called him a dumbass. I don't get the degrees of offensiveness. Either statement would be unprofessional and his behavior should be dealt with. To me, being fired for what he said is too severe of a punishment.

It is not about being PC. You should not say things like that to anyone in professional situations. It makes it feel like you have other motives or intentions by saying those things. And it could also lead to lawsuits or defending other practices when you state these kinds of things.

And no one said you are not allowed, but no one has to put up with your conduct that will come back to them. If an assignor has a person that says something like this, that assignor will have to answer to what kind of people he/she is hiring. If the conference is hiring someone that is associated with an educational setting and would not allow that in their world, then those institutions would have to answer for why they allow someone to work in their institution based on their normal policies.

This is how life works.

Peace

That is a great standard to strive for, unfortunately just like every other aspect of officiating and life, it is impossible to accomplish. I am sorry, but military background or not, I am sure you are just like every other person on this planet and have had lapses in professionalism at one point or another.

To respond to Johnny D - whether or not its a racial slur, a profanity, or just a flat-out insult - the fact still remains that if you're videotaped and it shows you having those kinds of interaction (regardless of what you said) to a fan, coach, etc etc - you're on the hook for it and there is nothing you can do to validate your actions. . .

Again, especially for officials of stature such as Hess and Valentine - and we've all been to camps, training, etc etc, where we've been told time and time again not to have those kinds of interactions (or perceived actions) with coaches, players, etc - why should it be any different for those individuals?

Now given, do coaches, players, and fans do things at times to where we need to address it? Absolutely. There's just "remedies" we have such as technical fouls, ejections, getting the assistance of site administration (those tools), that are available for us to use, that can handle such situations. . .

99% of the time, its the things that have absolutely nothing to do with actually officiating a basketball game that get us in trouble, and in Hess' case, that's what happened.

Sure. Doesn't happen very often, but when it does, I am held accountable for it because I am in a position of leadership. I accept that.

You make the argument that the fan was somehow just as culpable as Hess because he was being an @$$hole. I disagree. Hess was the leader in this situation. The accountability is his alone.

To his credit, Hess accepted responsibility for his actions. He even gave up games in other conferences. Whether he was "highly encouraged" to do this or not doesn't matter to me. The fact is that he did it. I respect that.

I did not say or mean to imply the fan was culpable or expected to act in the same professional manner that Hess was. I just pointed out the fact that it takes an exceptional ass wipe to hurl insults at some one and then cry foul when that person responds with an insult.

Well then you allow him to win when you make those kinds of comments. You could have gotten rid of his behind if he was a problem. But then again why pay that close attention to them in the first place?

Peace

I think we are getting too caught up in THIS instance. This was not the only incident that led to this outcome; this was, rather, the final straw for the ACC. Let's not forget that Hess has a history which includes ignoring protocol for dealing with fans, ejecting a coach for pointing out a shot clock error, and the brutal error of lining up the teams the wrong way.

Like BNR, I am not a believer that we should have to be stone-faced while coaches and fans lay into us. And I actually very much respect Hess's "no-nonsense" mentality when he works games. But he, even as a "big dog," is not immune to the consequences of his actions, as he admitted. If this was an isolated incident, I doubt the ACC would've canned him. And I do think the CEO was being a little bit of a crybaby on social media. Regardless, Hess cannot say what he said, and his history led to this outcome.

He'll take the rest of this season off, then he'll come back next season with a new primary conference.

I agree with this.

This is why I suggest fans be removed once they become a distraction, and before they cause us to lose our composure.

As Adam stated, "Orwellian" would mean the government would punish you for what you say, and that would be unacceptable (threats, "fire" in a crowded theater notwithstanding). The ACC is a private organization that sets its boundaries, and they're not too far off from the rest of American corporate society.

Let's review. Hess directed a nationality at someone, followed it with the word "ass," and the nationality was just plain wrong. So, I guess it was politically incorrect, albeit literally. Either way, such language is a deal-breaker just about anywhere.

I don't know. My wife of 23 years and I prefer to look at it as a survival technique.

All kidding aside, you have to know your audience. Most of the time, I won't interact with fans, but there are exceptions, if you have a good feel for the crowd. If Joey Crawford can buy fans beer, you know you're not always in a lion's den.

Is it ok for a high school ref to address high school players with profanity? Such as: "Stop your bitching" or "Shut your g__d___ mouth" ...and more of this nature:confused:

Nope. Have I heard it happen? Yes. But it shouldn't.

There are lots of ways to communicate with players; it's not as though profanity is the only language they know. A healthy, "knock it off!" or "I have heard enough." works well. So does a technical foul.

I suppose it could be regional, and acceptable in some remote corners of the globe, but not here. Never.

Well, maybe "stop your bitching."

In a somewhat related note, because he also works a lot of ACC games, Ray Natili went down with a leg injury at the end of OT in the Baylor/TCU game. Based on his reactions when they were tending to him, it seemed to be serious.

Any word on his status? If he out also, there is going to be a lot of scrambling to fill Hess's and Natili's games, some of which they were probably scheduled to work together.

+1

Is it possible that due to his recent controversies Hess was cautioned against ejecting any more fans? I would wager all he could do was yell back at the guy and insult him.

Or do what the rest of us do

Pretty much. That place you live must be the same here. Because usually people do not get all upset about the "PC World" unless they are OK with saying things that were once accepted but found out to be offensive to certain groups.

Peace

Hess' words are indefensible, even to most people who may have grown weary of constantly adjusting language to accommodate "pc" requirements. My experience with those people is different than yours, but Hess was out of line. If he'd have said "your dumb ass" instead, it would be debatable. What he actually said, however, really isn't debatable.

Well apparently it matters if he made a ethnic or racial slur to some. So I guess to the right person it is defensible.

Peace

You already know this, but some opinions matter more than others.

Based on the reaction of some, we should not talk about this anymore. I do not want to offend anyone. ;)

Peace

That discussion was a disaster from the moment it turned into an irrelevant dissertation on the definition of "slur."

Let it go.

shades of "Some animals are more equal than others."

:)

We are having the same discussion here. I think people here have a problem discussing things they do not understand. And that is why guys like Hess keeps getting in trouble for what they say.

Peace

Any time an old white man/woman makes a racial slur some how its always dismissed as irrelevant. (Al Campanis, Jimmy the Greek, Marge Schott on and on and on). Some people in this world want to maintain their privilege no matter what.

Truer words have never been spoken (in this thread for sure).

Peace

That isn't true in the slightest. Al and Jimmy were forced to resign under pressure and fired, respectively. Marge Schott was ridiculed, suspended, and forced to sell her team from her idiocy.

I completely agree with the firing of Hess and generally agree with JRut in the prev thread, but to say that it was dismissed is objectively and completely wrong.

I am old enough to remember when those individuals were fired or suspended and people tried to explain away the action by their employers or company, who is doing things to not be associated with such comments in any way. Even what happened to Donald Sterling was said by many (not necessarily here) that he should have never been forced to lose his franchise, when business were fleeing that franchise left and right and their association with the NBA if he stayed.

Hess said this to the wrong guy. He was a former trustee and someone with connections to the school and probably to those in the conference as well. If the conference had allowed Hess to stay, this could have come into situations with sponsors and others with big money playing a role into this decision. And let us face it, officials are very replaceable. We are not the coaches or even the players. They can find any guy to do what Hess does without the controversy. As much as I respect what those guys do at that level, there are 100 guys that can easily replace them and no one would notice but maybe a coach.

Peace

Someone is eaten up.

Completely agree.

No, just think it was silly for you to try to play games with what kind of slur was made. Either "slur" classification are taking very seriously by certainly universities and most companies if such comments are ever made public.

Peace