Crash…no whistle

[Rich1]

Originally Posted by johnny d

It is not possible for the defender and a shooter to jump into each other at exactly the same time and for it to be a 50/50 play. Either the defender established legal guarding position and jumped within his vertical plane making the shooter responsible for the contact, or the defender has not established LGP or has jumped outside of his vertical plane, thus making him responsible for the contact. Now, if you are referring to a play where two players without the ball are jumping for the ball from equally advantageous positions, I would agree there are times where there is no advantage/disadvantage, even though there could be severe contact.

Yes, one player surely initiated contact before the other and 94.673% of the time its clear who it was and the advantage/disadvantage gained. But there are those times when the contact is marginal, has no real affect on the play (even if one player technically initiated the contact), or its difficult to tell who got their first so its ok to pass on it.

As I stated earlier in relation to the OP, unless you KNOW your partner blew it big, its best to leave it alone.

[biggravy]

OP says dribbler went right down the middle? Who's primary did he start from. In my corner of Rome, C or T stays with the drive that starts in their primary. Even if it didn't start in my primary I'm closing down on that anticipating a quick pass or rebounding action and making sure I have a good look. "Down the middle" again, driver splitting two primaries I'm making sure I'm closing down and getting an angle.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by biggravy

OP says dribbler went right down the middle? Who's primary did he start from. In my corner of Rome, C or T stays with the drive that starts in their primary. Even if it didn't start in my primary I'm closing down on that anticipating a quick pass or rebounding action and making sure I have a good look. "Down the middle" again, driver splitting two primaries I'm making sure I'm closing down and getting an angle.

In my case I did, and got stacked anyway by a passing teammate of the dribbler who was probably setting up for a kickback pass. Meanwhile C has a last second but open look at the defender in the middle and froze.

WRT Rich1, I hear ya and almost agree. But this was not 50/50. I'd say my educated guess was about 70/30. And the defender got laid out on the floor while the dribbler stumbled and lost his balance. I had to have a whistle.

[Chris Whitten]

Biggravy, your point is excellent. On a drive from one of the wings C or T can stay with it and likely get a decent look. My issue is the defender is a secondary one and must have come up from one of the blocks to challenge the drive. I was blocked from seeing whether he had LGP.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Chris Whitten

Biggravy, your point is excellent. On a drive from one of the wings C or T can stay with it and likely get a decent look. My issue is the defender is a secondary one and must have come up from one of the blocks to challenge the drive. I was blocked from seeing whether he had LGP.

A secondary defender is likely going to require a call from an official other than the one following the drive to the basket.
So if the drive comes from T, the secondary defender could could from the PCA of either the L or C and that official should make the call. If the drive is from the C's side, most likely the secondary defender will come from the Lead's PCA, but he could come from the C's side outside the lane and that is when the L or even T may have to come help. This is the tough sitch in which the drive happens quickly after a skip pass and the crew doesn't have time to rotate.

[biggravy]

Originally Posted by Chris Whitten

Biggravy, your point is excellent. On a drive from one of the wings C or T can stay with it and likely get a decent look. My issue is the defender is a secondary one and must have come up from one of the blocks to challenge the drive. I was blocked from seeing whether he had LGP.

I gotcha. Again, in my neighborhood in Rome we pregame that L has that secondary defender on a drive. It sounds like you did what you could. I can see times in 3 whistle where two guys could maybe get straightlined. Pretty tough for all three to not get a look. Sounds like your C choked on his whistle and has some 'splaining to do!

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by Rich1

Yes, one player surely initiated contact before the other and 94.673% of the time its clear who it was and the advantage/disadvantage gained. But there are those times when the contact is marginal, has no real affect on the play (even if one player technically initiated the contact), or its difficult to tell who got their first so its ok to pass on it.

As I stated earlier in relation to the OP, unless you KNOW your partner blew it big, its best to leave it alone.

My post was not intended to address advantage gained, nor did it necessarily have anything to do with the severity of the contact. I was disputing your statement that there are instances where there are 50/50 plays between a player with the ball (a shooter specifically) and a defender getting to a particular spot. By rule, this is simply not true. That does not mean there has to be a call every time there is contact. Sometimes there is incidental contact that can be ignored. Rarely if ever, can incidental contact result in two players on the ground.

Finally, to address a statement you make in this post, you should stop judging the legality of contact by its severity. There are times when marginal contact is and should be a foul. There are times severe contact is and should not be a foul. The question is not whether the contact is marginal or severe, it is whether or not it is incidental.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by johnny d

Rarely if ever, can incidental contact result in two players on the ground.

I disagree with this. I would say, most times, there should be a whistle if it's seen properly. I wouldn't call the exceptions rare, though.

I good legal screen can result with both players on the ground and no valid foul to call. As can a lot of loose ball contact where both players come from equally advantageous positions.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by Adam

I disagree with this. I would say, most times, there should be a whistle if it's seen properly. I wouldn't call the exceptions rare, though.

I good legal screen can result with both players on the ground and no valid foul to call. As can a lot of loose ball contact where both players come from equally advantageous positions.

I have seen very few screens where both players have ended up on the ground. Normally the person setting the screen is prepared for the contact. They may be displaced, but they do not often fall. More often, the person being screened ends up on the ground.

In my experience, on loose balls where there is severe contact resulting from players coming into the play from equally advantageous positions, one player ends up on the ground and the other player ends up with the ball.

Again, I am not saying it doesn't happen, just that it is rare. Having two players on the ground is a good indication that one of them went to and through the other.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by johnny d

I have seen very few screens where both players have ended up on the ground. Normally the person setting the screen is prepared for the contact. They may be displaced, but they do not often fall. More often, the person being screened ends up on the ground.

In my experience, on loose balls where there is severe contact resulting from players coming into the play from equally advantageous positions, one player ends up on the ground and the other player ends up with the ball.

Again, I am not saying it doesn't happen, just that it is rare. Having two players on the ground is a good indication that one of them went to and through the other.

If you think it rare for two or more players to end on the court due to Incidental Contact, then you haven't seen very many games.

MTD, Sr.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

If you think it rare for two or more players to end on the court due to Incidental Contact, then you haven't seen very many games.

MTD, Sr.

I guess, if you consider 60+ HS/college men's games per season for the last 10years running not many, then you would be correct.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by johnny d

I guess, if you consider 60+ HS/college men's games per season for the last 10years running not many, then you would be correct.

I have officiated boys'/girls' JrHS/HS since 1971; women's college from 1974-2008 including 18 college playoff games and 20 jr. coll. playoff games; men's jr. college from 1993-2008; over 25 years of Special Olympics including over 20 Ohio Special Olympis Final Fours; one Speical Olympics World Summer Games; at least 40 AAU and YBOA boys' and girls' national championship tournaments (including three YBOA Girls' National Championship Games); countless AAU and YBOA invitationals; and MTD, Jr., and I just officiated a girls' JrHS doubleheader this morning that easily had 20 cases of players going to the floor due to Incidental Contact while going for the Ball.

And during the 1990's (Billy and Padgett, not the 1890's, though after today's games with Junior I feel like it was the 1890's.) I averaged approximately 400 hunderd games a year at all levels.

I think I have your 600 hundred games in ten years beat.

MTD, Sr.

Originally Posted by johnny d

I have seen very few screens where both players have ended up on the ground. Normally the person setting the screen is prepared for the contact. They may be displaced, but they do not often fall. More often, the person being screened ends up on the ground.

In my experience, on loose balls where there is severe contact resulting from players coming into the play from equally advantageous positions, one player ends up on the ground and the other player ends up with the ball.

Again, I am not saying it doesn't happen, just that it is rare. Having two players on the ground is a good indication that one of them went to and through the other.

Strongly agree. If the screener and the screenee both hit the floor then something illegal happened there, in all but the most rare circumstances.

Originally Posted by VaTerp

I cringe when I hear people pre-game that if bodies are on the floor we HAVE to have a whistle on the play. Basketball is a contact sport. But we all know that all contact is not illegal. Sometimes there is contact and it looks ugly but its possible nobody did anything illegal. Play on.

Yeah there's not really a place in officiating for hard-and-fast rules or absolutes on when we need a whistle or don't. The situation is, as always, fluid. I pregame if we have a block/charge which ends with both players on the floor then we should probably have a whistle. Obviously there are many other plays where two players may hit the floor from incidental contact, I think most of the pregames that mention needing a whistle for two bodies on the floor are referencing block/charge plays.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Strongly agree. If the screener and the screenee both hit the floor then something illegal happened there, in all but the most rare circumstances.



Yeah there's not really a place in officiating for hard-and-fast rules or absolutes on when we need a whistle or don't. The situation is, as always, fluid. I pregame if we have a block/charge which ends with both players on the floor then we should probably have a whistle. Obviously there are many other plays where two players may hit the floor from incidental contact, I think most of the pregames that mention needing a whistle for two bodies on the floor are referencing block/charge plays.

There is not logical defense for your statement. Especially when you said and I qoute: "[T]here's not really a place in officiating for hard-and-fast rules or absolutes on when we need a whistle or don't. The situation is, as always, fluid."

MTD, Sr.

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

There is not logical defense for your statement. Especially when you said and I qoute: "[T]here's not really a place in officiating for hard-and-fast rules or absolutes on when we need a whistle or don't. The situation is, as always, fluid."

MTD, Sr.

Probably because I'm not appealing to logic, I am appealing to experience and that is why I wrote "in all but the most rare circumstances". Johnny d said it best: "Having two players on the ground is a good indication that one of them went to and through the other."