20 Second disqualification count and FT
 

Question about this. After five seconds a warning horn.
Is it ok for the coach to gather his players over?
I had an issue when the time had run out on Two fts by the opposing team. Shoot the first. Would you just shoot the second one here? Or do you call a delay of game warning if they aren't lined up.

As long as the coach has his sub to the table before that 2nd horn, he can do what he wants. Once the sub gets to the table, get the game going.

Second question. How are they delaying the game? They aren't supposed to be lined up, right? Let the coach talk to them as long as they stay on the court.

So if a coach wants to use the time, he should do this.
Have a sub ready but don't send him to the table until 20 seconds. However, if he reports and the coach then calls him over and his players, a semi-on court timeout, are you then going to start the game?


So for the Fts if the coach wants to keep talking to them, just shoot them. The opposing team is shooting. Sounds good to me.

Unless the 5th foul was a T or an Intentional foul they must have 2 players lined up for any Free Throw attempts.

If their are no Free Throws then give a short chirp of the Whistle and if they are still conferring with the Coach let the ball be in-bounded for the easy bucket. :eek:

In the OP, it sounds like the sub was never provided. Assuming that is the case...

If the 20 second interval runs out without the sub being available, then you have T on the coach.

So, at that point, the team no longer has to occupy the lower spaces. However, you still can't proceed until the sub has been brought into the game.

If the coach still doesn't provide a sub, I guess you'd go a 2nd T and eject the coach.

All that said, GET INTO THEIR HUDDLE and tell the coach you need that sub NOW before it gets to that point. Chances are, he is just distracted and unaware of the ramifications.

As for the huddling, they can do that if they want. The sub just needs to be provided before the time runs out. Once the sub is provided, the game resumes immediately.

I was taking it to be two separate situations.

1. Can a coach talk to his players during the 20 second interval?

2. When the clock has expired and you have FTs to shoot, can the coach talk to his players while the FTs are being shot?

I may have read it wrong.

These are two separate situations, right?

1. Yes, he can do it, but if he holds the sub he risks that horn going off. That sub needs to be at the table when the horn goes, not on his way, or waiting to go. Coach can use the 20 seconds as he sees fit, but this isn't a TO where we give a bit of cushion at the end.

With the FTs, I'm assuming this is a separate situation with the time expired and FTs to be shot. No one lines up, so B coach can have all 5 players by the bench and start talking. A coach can have the 4 who aren't shooting.

I'm not shooting any free throws until the defense has 2 players on the bottom spots.

If the defense is not lined up for the Fts because the coach has them huddling following the fifth foul. There is time on the clock.
So it appears you give them a delay warning but DO NOT shoot the fts until the D has two lined up.

Sub must report to the table before the warning horn, 15 seconds remaining in any "time out" situation. Coaches may use the entire 20 seconds however they would like however at the conclusion of the time both teams need to be ready to go. Both teams may also use the break to substitute players but all players that are going to substitute must report before the warning horn.

Secondly, the defense is required to have players occupying the first marked lane spaces. The delay of game is that they are not breaking the huddle properly and being ready to play as opposed to not being in the lane space.

One Lump Or Two ???
 

Since this is probably not after a timeout, or an intermission, then:

10-1-5: A team shall not:
Delay the game by preventing the ball from being made promptly live or from being put in
play. See 7-5-1 and 8-1-2 for the resumption-of-play procedure to use after a time-out or the
intermission between quarters. The procedure is used prior to charging a technical foul in
these specific situations.

No, this is not a DOG warning, nor is it RPP.

Direct the coach to give you two defenders for the block. If he doesn't comply, call the T and now he won't need defenders on the block.

The sub must report before the 20 second horn. No other subs may enter until that sub has been beckoned in. Reporting before the first horn is not a consideration here, it is not a timeout.

The X Files ...
 

Even if they had already reported to the table, and were kneeling on the X?

Let's Go To The Videotape ...
 

10.1.5 SITUATION C: The calling official has reported the foul and proceeds to
his/her proper position for the first of two free throws awarded to A1. B1 and B2
are: (a) huddling in the lane; or (b) two B players are not occupying the first two
marked spaces next to the end line as required. RULING: In (a), if the huddle
delays the officials’ administration, Team B is warned. The warning is recorded by
the scorer and reported to the head coach. If Team B had been previously warned
for delay, a technical foul shall be charged. In (b), Team B will be directed to occupy
the required spaces. If there is delay, a team technical foul shall be charged to
Team B. (4-47)

That is NOT a delay warning situation -- it's an immediate T (well, in practice, you tell the coach you need the two players before you assess the T).

The post by Adam is correct. You do not admit other subs until the replacement player has been beckoned in. At that time, you allow all subs who have reported to enter.

Repeatedly say "this is not a time-out" and get the team(s) out the huddle. It irritates me that coaches think they are entitled to a free time-out in these situations.

I'm Not From Missouri, But ...
 

Sounds good, but I just did a quick rulebook, and casebook, search for "substitute" and I couldn't find a citation. Can someone please provide such a citation for "do not admit other subs until the replacement player has been beckoned in"?

Repeatedly say "this is not a time-out" and get the team(s) out the huddle

I've done that. I did it in my last game and got on the coach to get a sub. But it doesn't seem against the rules for a coach to do exactly that, make it an unofficial hurried Timeout. As long as it lasts under 20 seconds. I'd rather see a rule change to outlaw it. I'd like to get rid of the warning horn after five seconds.
Maybe- the Coach has 10 seconds to send a sub to the table. Once the sub is there and is beckoned onto the court, play is ready to begin. This would allow the coach basically no time to do a huddle(by the time the players get to the coach, we would be talking about five seconds at the most) and also could lead to delay of game warnings if the Coach tries to do that.

It's not against the rules. S/He can use the 20 seconds how s/he wants -- many s/he wants to ask the team if they'd rather have player x or player y in the game.

FWIW, IL experimented with a "must replace the DQ'd player 'immediately' " rule a few (5-10) years ago. It worked well, imo.

3-3-1c (from 2012-2013, but I'm sure it's still valid).

If At First You Don't Succeed ...
 

3-3-1-C-Exception:
A substitute who desires to enter shall report to the scorer, giving his/her number.
c. During multiple free throws resulting from personal fouls, substitutions may be made only
before the final attempt in the sequence and after the final attempt has been converted.
EXCEPTION: When a player is required by rule to be replaced prior to administering the free
throw(s), then all other substitutes who have legally reported may also enter the game.

This just doesn't do it for me, it's about multiple free throws. What if there are substitutes at the table, who have legally reported, and are kneeling on the X, when a player is disqualified, and there will be no free throws taken (no bonus, etc.)? How can we legally not allow those substitutes to enter before the disqualified player is replaced?

Are you sure that you aren't confusing this situation with the situation where a timeout can't be granted until the disqualified player is replaced? I did find a citation for that situation.

Isn't that what we have -- a DQ'd player requiring to be replaced?

Citation Still Needed ...
 

This exception is for multiple free throws. If we have substitutes waiting at the table when a two shot foul is called, they normally have to wait until after the first shot. However, if said foul causes a player to be disqualified, then all (existing substitutes, and replacement for disqualified player) can enter before the first free throw.

Let's see a citation for "do not admit other subs until the replacement player has been beckoned in" for a non free throw shooting situation (no bonus, not a shooting foul, etc.).

Billy, I've seen instruction for both ways over the years. I really don't know what the current take is or if it matters. One such ruling is in the past interps thread on this site.

In the order they occur...
 

I believe the prudent way to handle this is to first replace the disqualified player and then allow for other substitutions like you would at other times. I would not call in other subs for either team before the replacement is identified because it could create confusion. The purpose of td 20 second timer is to specifically deal with replacing the DQ'd player and nothing else happens until that's done.

Thanks To The Archive King ...
 

2007-08 Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 1: B1 is injured to the point that bench personnel are beckoned to the court. After B1 has been safely moved to the bench, Team B's head coach is notified that a substitute is required and instructs the timer to begin the 20-second replacement interval. Just as the interval begins, two substitutes from Team A approach the scorer's table to enter the game. RULING: Substitutes from either team may enter the game during this dead-ball period until the officials are ready to put the ball in play. The replacement interval is only for the substitute required for B1. If an eligible substitute does not report for B1 by the end of 20 seconds, a technical foul is assessed directly to the Team B head coach. (3-3-1d; 3-3-5; 10-5-3 Penalty)

2003-04 NFHS BASKETBALL RULES INTERPRETATIONS
SITUATION 3: A5 is called for a fifth foul. The proper official notifies the head coach and instructs the timer to begin timing the replacement interval. After the 20-second warning horn and before the required substitute for A5 approaches the scorer’s table, (a) B6 and B7 report to the official scorer; (b) A6, who is replacing A1 reports to the official scorer; or (c) A3 requests a time-out. RULING: In (a) and (b), the properly reported substitutes shall be permitted to enter the game. In (c), a time-out shall not be granted while a replacement for A5 is pending. (3-3-1d; 5-8-3b)

2002-03 NFHS BASKETBALL RULES INTERPRETATIONS
SITUATION 3: A1 fouls out of the game. The Team A coach talks to a substitute and within 15 seconds sends the substitute to the table to report in the game. A Team B player then requests a time-out. RULING: Since a time-out may not be granted until a disqualified player is replaced, the administering official should ask the substitute at the table if he/she is the replacement for A1. If so, the time-out may be granted. If not, the substitute shall remain at the table and the coach must still replace A1 within the specified timeframe before the time-out may be granted. (3-3-1;10-5-1d; 5-8-3b)

2000-01 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 7: A6 and A7 report to the table as substitutes to enter the game. B5 commits his/her fifth personal foul. A4 goes to the free-throw line to shoot two free throws. B6 replaces B5 before A4 shoots the first free throw. A6 and A7 are also beckoned to come into the game. RULING: The official was correct in beckoning A6 and A7 to come with B6. When a player is required by rule to be replaced prior to administering the free throw(s), then all other substitutes who have legally reported may also enter the game. (3-3-ic)

Two (red) to one (blue). Do we go with the majority, or the most recent interpretation(s), which, in this case, both point in the same direction?

bob jenkins: A actual rule citation (not annual interpretations with conflicting interpretations) would be greatly appreciated. I would really like to know the correct interpretation of "do not admit other subs until the replacement player has been beckoned in". I'm only leaning toward that it's an incorrect interpretation. I would like to be convinced otherwise.

When In Rome, Or When In The NFHS ???
 

Sounds good, practical, and rational, but is it an actual NFHS rule, or just another local interpretation, or mechanic?

None of the above.
 

Its neither. It seems as though there is no clear cut and official guide to how this should be handled and that seems to be the best way in my view until further clarification from above my pay grade. Also, I employ that procedure when dealing with a DQ replacement when a 20 second count is needed. Most of the time coaches get in a sub right away for injuries and 5th fouls so we usually don't even get to start the clock.

we are also not supposed to grant a timeout until after the replacement is beckoned. not sure where that is written.

5-8-3b

Clarification ...
 

Is the NFHS above your pay grade?

2007-08 Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 1: B1 is injured to the point that bench personnel are beckoned to the court. After B1 has been safely moved to the bench, Team B's head coach is notified that a substitute is required and instructs the timer to begin the 20-second replacement interval. Just as the interval begins, two substitutes from Team A approach the scorer's table to enter the game. RULING: Substitutes from either team may enter the game during this dead-ball period until the officials are ready to put the ball in play. The replacement interval is only for the substitute required for B1. If an eligible substitute does not report for B1 by the end of 20 seconds, a technical foul is assessed directly to the Team B head coach. (3-3-1d; 3-3-5; 10-5-3 Penalty)

2003-04 NFHS BASKETBALL RULES INTERPRETATIONS
SITUATION 3: A5 is called for a fifth foul. The proper official notifies the head coach and instructs the timer to begin timing the replacement interval. After the 20-second warning horn and before the required substitute for A5 approaches the scorer’s table, (a) B6 and B7 report to the official scorer; (b) A6, who is replacing A1 reports to the official scorer; or (c) A3 requests a time-out. RULING: In (a) and (b), the properly reported substitutes shall be permitted to enter the game. In (c), a time-out shall not be granted while a replacement for A5 is pending. (3-3-1d; 5-8-3b)

Crystal Clear ...
 

Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, shall be stopped when an official:
Grants a player’s/head coach’s oral or visual request for a time-out,
such request being granted only when: The ball is dead, unless replacement of a disqualified, or injured player(s),
or a player directed to leave the game is pending, and a substitute(s) is
available and required.

The "don't grant a timeout rule" is very clear. Why is the "don't beckon substitutes rule" not clear? Because it doesn't exist? If it's not illegal, then it must be legal.

Still some wiggle room
 

Agree that subs can be beckoned in at anytime during this process but am holding on to the fact that I get to decide when to beckon them. If all is going well, coach isn't a problem, and bringing them in now won't create confusion then bring 'em in. But if I feel the situation dictates that we be certain who is subbing for who or that the coach might want to play games then I have no problem making them all wait at the table for a few more seconds. Likewise, in some situations it might make sense to get the waiting subs in asap to make it easier to deal with the coach and the replacement procedure.

Let The Substitutes In, And Then Deal With The Coach ...
 

We are in full agreement.

That's My Story And I'm Sticking To It ...
 

After researching the statement "do not admit other subs until the replacement player has been beckoned in" over the weekend, I have come to the conclusion that this rule doesn't really exist.

Keep I mind that I originally thought that it did exist, and simply wanted a citation to hang my hat on. Without a current rulebook citation, and without a current casebook citation, to back up the statement, and with two annual interpretations (below), one as recent as seven years ago, that refute that statement, I have changed my mind, and have concluded that the rule really doesn't exist, and, if it's not illegal, then it's legal.

2007-08 Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 1: B1 is injured to the point that bench personnel are beckoned to the court. After B1 has been safely moved to the bench, Team B's head coach is notified that a substitute is required and instructs the timer to begin the 20-second replacement interval. Just as the interval begins, two substitutes from Team A approach the scorer's table to enter the game. RULING: Substitutes from either team may enter the game during this dead-ball period until the officials are ready to put the ball in play. The replacement interval is only for the substitute required for B1. If an eligible substitute does not report for B1 by the end of 20 seconds, a technical foul is assessed directly to the Team B head coach. (3-3-1laed ot red; 3-3-5; 10-5-3 Penalty)

2003-04 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 3: A5 is called for a fifth foul. The proper official notifies the head coach and instructs the timer to begin timing the replacement interval. After the 20-second warning horn and before the required substitute for A5 approaches the scorer’s table, (a) B6 and B7 report to the official scorer; (b) A6, who is replacing A1 reports to the official scorer; or (c) A3 requests a time-out. RULING: In (a) and (b), the properly reported substitutes shall be permitted to enter the game. In (c), a time-out shall not be granted while a replacement for A5 is pending. (3-3-1d; 5-8-3b)

I believe that the reason why some, including me, initially believed that the statement "do not admit other subs until the replacement player has been beckoned in" was correct, was that they were confusing it with a similar statement, also involving a replacement player, "do not grant any timeouts until the replacement player has been beckoned in". This is a real rule:

5-8-3b: Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, shall be stopped when an official:
Grants a player’s/head coach’s oral or visual request for a time-out,
such request being granted only when: The ball is dead, unless replacement of a disqualified, or injured player(s),
or a player directed to leave the game is pending, and a substitute(s) is
available and required.

Another cause of confusion was the following rule:

3-3-1-C-Exception:
A substitute who desires to enter shall report to the scorer, giving his/her number.
c. During multiple free throws resulting from personal fouls, substitutions may be made only
before the final attempt in the sequence and after the final attempt has been converted.
EXCEPTION: When a player is required by rule to be replaced prior to administering the free
throw(s), then all other substitutes who have legally reported may also enter the game.

This exception is only for multiple free throws. If we have substitutes waiting at the table when a two shot foul is called, they normally have to wait until after the first shot. However, if said foul causes a player to be disqualified, then all (existing substitutes, and replacement for disqualified player) can enter before the first free throw.

This rule (above) must not be generalized to mean "do not admit other subs until the replacement player has been beckoned in".

The only fly in the ointment that I can see is this twelve year old annual interpretation:

2002-03 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 3: A1 fouls out of the game. The Team A coach talks to a substitute and within 15 seconds sends the substitute to the table to report in the game. A Team B player then requests a time-out. RULING: Since a time-out may not be granted until a disqualified player is replaced, the administering official should ask the substitute at the table if he/she is the replacement for A1. If so, the time-out may be granted. If not, the substitute shall remain at the table and the coach must still replace A1 within the specified time frame before the time-out may be granted. (3-3-1;10-5-1d; 5-8-3b)

There are two problems with this annual interpretation, one minor, and one major. The first is that it's complicated by a request for a timeout. The second is that this twelve year old interpretation has been "replaced" by two newer interpretations (above).

Can we put this to bed now?

Had a girls sub varsity game a few years back. A1 drives to the basket and B1 is still moving after A1 goes airborne. I have a blocking foul on B1. This is B1's fifth foul. Coach does not like the call at all. I tell her it is the fifth foul and give her a quick one sentence reason why I called what I called. She says "I am done talking to you!" I then turn to the timekeeper and ask for a 20 second replacement interval. 5 seconds. Horn. Coach is just sitting there doing nothing except being angry. 15 seconds and then horn. Whack! T for Bs coach. She says, "I get 30 seconds!" Me: No, you get 20 seconds. Coach: well that wasn't 20 seconds. Me: Coach I had the timer time it, and that was 20 seconds." Made me laugh then and still does now. Silly coaches.

If she doesn't want to talk to me, I am not going to bother with her. Maybe she learned her lesson.

And The Horse She Rode In On ...
 

She was correct, back when she rode her horse to the game.

(Am I right Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.?)

Nah, it was 60 seconds back when . . . but I believe it went to 30 before it went to 20) . . .(and I'm sure Mark or Bob will correct if I'm wrong)

I've learned not to do this unless they ask. It never seems to end well when I volunteer it.

As for the rest of the story, I would have wanted to add, "time goes faster when you're pouting."

You're right. It was 30 when I started following the game's finer points back in the early 90s. Then it changed to 20 because coaches were taking too much liberty in getting a "free" timeout.

During OT of the Ok St. vs. Mizzou game last night there was a foul out and the announcers were criticizing how long it was taking (this after several monitor reviews that had already made the game take forever). The Ok. St. coach totally milked it for as many seconds as he could get. I think at one point he even said something to the officials about checking something on the monitor, they bought it, and he turned right around for more free "timeout" time with his players. That was his plan the whole time. And then it was hard getting him out of the huddle.

Could the officials have whacked Ok. St. coach with a T? Let us use the three-pronged test for technical fouls:

Does it fit? No (OT, close game, coaches just trying to coach)
Is it effective? Yes.
Can it be defended? Yes.

So I wouldn't give the T because it doesn't fit the situation (not good for the game at that point).

The NCAA rules committee could look at this and make a POE, but I don't think that would change much. It's like improving pace of play in baseball, i.e. very very hard to do.

She did ask. She didn't like the explanation and then decided to be a PITA.

Sadly, this is the #1 reason that I don't work girls basketball. The female coaches seem to gripe and complain far too much.

I have seen little difference between gender of teams or gender of coaches as to who gripes more. They all gripe too much.

I've called 2 technical fouls in the past 12 years on DQ-replacing situations. Both make me chuckle a bit...now.

The first coach argued that he had a minute to do this. Now, at that point I had been officiating over 15 years and for me it was NEVER a minute. At the time it was 30 seconds and it had always been 30 seconds for me. He kept arguing that and when the horn went at 30 seconds, I whacked him. He KEPT ARGUING that he had a minute, that we were horrible, etc.

The second coach spent the entire time arguing the foul and I knew I was going to whack him one way or another. I decided to wait till the second horn went. When it did, I whacked him and walked away. My partner dealt with the aftermath.

I work with a lot of officials who instruct the timer to NOT give the second horn in that situation until it's requested. I'm OK with that. Last thing I want is the opposing coach arguing for a technical because the sub isn't quite at the X when the second horn goes.

Same here.

[QUOTE=Rich;
I work with a lot of officials who instruct the timer to NOT give the second horn in that situation until it's requested. I'm OK with that. Last thing I want is the opposing coach arguing for a technical because the sub isn't quite at the X when the second horn goes.[/QUOTE]

excellent technique!