End of Game Clock- Rule vs GM
 

Girls Varsity, 7.2 sec left in 4th, home (H) team down by 11. (30-19, neither side is scoring much)

H1 has ball on side line for throw in. H1 throws ball, and V1 slaps it, ball bounces inbounds and goes back out, will be Home ball again. All of this happens bang-bang. So fast that the administering official never chopped the clock.

Clock does not start, so 7.2 still on clock.

No one on the crew has definite knowledge, just that the clock did not start/stop. All agree that it SHOULD have started. (would any on you have definite knowledge in this situation)

What do you do?

1; Nothing, no definite knowledge.
2: Have timer start/stop clock quick so "reaction time" goes off. (.3 to .4 sec I would guess)_
3: Nothing, Game management dictates this is not critical, so play on.


Is your answer different in a 2 point game? (Game Management?)
Is it different if 6:25 is left on the clock?

You can only take time off the clock (or put it back on) if you have definite knowledge. I don't see how this would be possible in the scenario you posted.

I have a college supervisor who says in his games we are to take 0.3 off the clock in such situations.

You'll spend more time trying to correct the clock than you would just letting it play out. I'm not worrying about this regardless of the circumstances (score or time left).

Amen!!!

Even in varsity games at some schools in our area we are elated when we go an entire game with the clock starting and stopping properly in normal situations. It would take some of these operators a good 15 minutes to figure out how to take 0.3 off the clock.

Play on...

we dont do that but ive heard about it. where does it come from? the .3 rule says player cant possess ball and shoot if .3 or less left. that doesnt really mean every touch in bounds always takes up at least .3. maybe it does...i just havnt seen anything saying that...

It comes from the NBA rule that mandates that a ball legally touched inbounds must result in at least .3 coming off the clock (well at least if no reply is being used...replay can go back and take only .2 or .1 off the clock).

Worked a Varsity game last year that was a 2 point game in the final minute. Winning team was inbounding near the division line with about 7.5 seconds left, defender immediately slapped ball out of bounds. I'm C tableside. I look at the clock, no time had come off. Winning coach behind me starts screaming to take time off. I tell him we didn't have definite knowledge, etc. and can't take time off. I turn back to the court and here comes Trail (also the R) across the court straight to the timer where he takes off .3 seconds. Not sure if the losing coach called the assignor but I'd like to hear how that conversation went.

BNR:

What NCAA Rule does your college supervisor use to defend his position?

MTD, Sr.

See APG's response above...We didn't question it, so he had no need to defend it.

Rhetrical question: How can a college supervisor apply and NBA/WNBA rule to the college game?

MTD, Sr.

Rhetorical answer.:p

Rhetrical* :D

I think you'll have to ask his supervisor on that one Mark.

Ad hominem retort.

Fallacious reasoning referencing a decade-old rules interpretation!

I corrected the spelling and added a P.S. LOL!

MTD, Sr.

In that spot, without definitive knowledge, we are playing on. Also, I quickly decide we do not have definitive knowledge so the ball is quickly getting put back in play.

In your 6:25 sitch, same thing. We are rolling on.

In your two point left sitch, again, without definitive knowledge, we are playing on. Maybe I am taking game management to an OCD level but with less than a minute left in a close game I am counting one one thousand two one thousand on a touch like that. What if the ball is tipped on the throw in away from all the players and clearly three or four seconds elapse before the ball goes out of bounds way down the court? That is why I am counting.

See this FED interp from 2009-2010 (emphasis added):

SITUATION 11: Team B scores a goal to take the lead by one point. A1 immediately requests and is granted a timeout with three seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. Following the time-out, Team A is awarded the ball for a throw-in from anywhere along the end line. A1 passes the ball to A2, who is also outside the boundary; A2 passes the ball to A1 who is inbounds and running the length of the court. The timer mistakenly starts the clock when A2 touches A1’s pass while standing outside the boundary. An official notices the clock starting on A2’s touch (a), before A2 releases the throw-in pass to A1, (b), while A2’s throw-in pass is in flight to A1, or (c), as soon as A1 catches the throw-in pass. RULING: This is an obvious timing mistake and may be corrected. In (a) and (b), the official shall blow the whistle, stop play and direct the timer to put three seconds on the game clock. Since the throw-in had not ended, play is resumed with a Team A throw-in from anywhere along the end line. In (c), the official may put the correct time on the clock, but must make some allowance for the touching by A1 – likely 10ths of a second, if displayed. The ball is put in play nearest to where it was located when the stoppage occurred to correct the timing mistake. A “do over” is not permitted in (c), since the throw-in had ended. (4-36; 5-10-1)

No do overs
 

Therefore, since the throw in ended with V1 touch, and no definite knowledge the correct answerer to the OP is 1. That is the path we took, but it was a good discussion on the way home.

Opps, on the first read I thought it said "may" in both cases. Bob do you think the interp supports taking some time off the clock in the OP without definite knowledge?

My opinion is that you always have definite knowledge that some time should have gone off the clock in any case where the clock didn't start -- it is definitely more than 0.0 seconds. So you do have definite knowledge that at least .1 seconds elapsed. In the case of a tap directly out of bounds where the clock didn't start, I'm probably going with 0.3 seconds.

To not do this could penalize the defense in certain situations. What happens when the clock says .5 and this happens with the offense down by 2? I'm not letting the offense another "catch and shoot" attempt. If I don't have definite knowledge that it was .5 seconds and the game is over, then I'm taking between .3 off the clock and only a "tap" can score.

Good find. I was in the "no definite knowledge" camp until I read this. That case play sold me.

My greater wonder now is why the NFHS removed this from their case book? I'll bet they were concerned that officials' manipulation of the clock was being interpreted too liberally.

They didn't. This was published in their interpretations that they issue every year.

If a rulebook specifies that at least 0.3 seconds should be run off any time the clock starts properly, that's one thing.

But, I think the logic is faulty to use NFHS 5-2-5 and declare that at least 0.3 seconds must run off on a deflection that goes immediately OOB. That rule says that 0.3 seconds is the minimal amount of time that a player needs to "catch and release." If there's no control, it could be less. Heck, that's essentially what 5-2-5 says in regards to the try.

A player has his hand an inch above the ground over OOB deflects the thrown-in directly to the floor and you'd take off 0.3 seconds? If the player caught the ball and immediately tossed it into the first row, I'd agree with you that at least 0.3 seconds should come off.

The interp provokes questions of its own.

.....must make allowance for the touching, likely tenths of a second, if displayed.


likely? if displayed?

And what if they're not displayed? You take off a whole second for this? I don't think so.

I agree. It could be 0.1. I'm saying 0.3 for anything that is clearly longer but no other count was being conducted. But if it is immediately out of bounds, then I'd go 0.1. I just don't think it can be 0.0.