Fan Ejection
 

Not an official, but looking for input from officials on proper procedure.

Background info.
PA Boys V game, late 3rd quarter. Referee gives T (Visiting team B) for hanging on the rim after a dunk. While not the most egregious infraction it was more than enough to warrant a call (no safety issues and definite chin up motion before letting go).

Fan of Team B, who has been seen joking with at least 1 other member of the 3 person crew throughout the game, obviously does not like the call. He is sitting center court, 1st row, directly across from scorers table.

Referee in question has the ball to inbound for start of 4th quarter (obviously positioned right near fan in question). Referee stops, crosses court to table and asks for game manager and indicates the fan needs to be removed. Ok, game manager attempts to go do just that, fan refuses.

Meanwhile they restart game play (amusing side note, official on table side of court was talking to fans when they eventually did inbound to start 4th quarter, had to be told by Team B coach that game had started). Game manager, and now District Facilities Manager (he is there because his son is a player for JV Team A), continues to ask person to leave. Other fans of Team B begin defending him and verbally abusing the district personnel. Police are called but don't arrive until the fan has left (1 minute left in the game, with outcome decided) on his own. One of the other fans in question ended up getting more grilling by the police than the fan who instigated the issue.

I feel the official put the school personnel in a tough spot by demanding the ejection and then ignoring the situation. Should the official have held play until fan left (or at least moved from center court)? Since most districts do not let their game workers physically touch someone to remove them, does this request not just ask for verbal confrontations to continue (now with school personnel instead of official)? At least if the official holds play, then there is pressure for the fan to leave on his own (rather than police).

Please note, there had been no prior complaint by the official in question about the fan prior to removal being requested.

Just curious what other officials would do, or if there is specific procedures that should be followed if an fan removal is requested.

Thanks.

Other officials would not be joking with anyone in the stands at any point in this story.

I have no idea what I would expect from the jokers you describe, so it's hard to say what most would do differently, given that the rest of this would never happen before the point you're asking about.

But if an official has a fan removed, they should not start until that fan is indeed removed.

My initial response would be that that I wouldn't hold up the game, as that would only add more unwanted attention to the situation. However, I'm curious to read what others would do.

Either way, hopefully the school/game manager learns from this situation, and is better prepared for handling it in the future.

Wow. My first thought is that there was way too much unprofessionalism among the crew with respect to interactions with fans, especially for a varsity game. There's no place for that. If someone calls out to an official to get their attention, at most the official simply turns and nods his/her head, then gets his/her attention back to the court. Professionalism by itself might have prevented this situation from occurring.

As for asking to have a particular fan removed, if I ever did that, it would have to be so obvious to everyone in the gym that he needed to leave that the whole building would be waiving him goodbye. Short of that, just ignore and move on. If a fan is truly getting out of control, I hope that game management or contract security/police would take care of it.

Speaking of contract security, might be a good idea to have some the next time these two teams play.

That was my initial thought. Unless I felt like there would be a safety or other issue by resuming, I would have probably resumed play once game management got involved. Never had to remove a fan before though, so maybe it would be better to wait.

Sounds like quite a mess.

The first question I would ask is: did the fan need to be removed? We have to understand there will be some verbal abuse from fans especially in emotionally charged games. We need to have a thick skin and in my experience, ignoring verbal abuse is the best tactic to get them to stop. If they won't stop or the abuse becomes vulgar or personal in nature, the first thing I would do is have him moved to another seat. If he is going to not behave in the front row, moving to the back of the gym is a good way to get him out of sight (and hearing distance). This might be a nice compromise.

If you decide he needs to leave the gym, there is no way you should resume play until the fan has vacated. If the fan refuses to leave, I tell the home coach that if the fan doesn't leave he will cost him points (technical foul). By rule you can penalize the home team with an administrative technical foul for fan behavior. This is not something that should be used except in the rarest of circumstances. If you say something, there is a good chance the coach will be motivated to get the unruly fan out of the gym ASAP.

As far as professionalism of your partner, I don't think this deserves a response. I would probably inform your assignor what happened and that you didn't feel the official exhibited proper professionalism during the game and leave it at that. The assignor can choose to act on it if he chooses.

Let game administration know the fan needs to go and then inbound the ball. Only reason why I'm holding it up is if he/she (fan) is on the court and interfering with play. My focus is on the 10 players between the lines and not the fans in the stands.

So long as game management is involved there is no way I'm even thinking of having the home coach get involved or threaten with a T. Not in a varsity game with game management/AD/security around.

There is no good reason to be joking with the fans. It can be looked at as pretty unprofessional. It looks bad especially if a coach needs to remind a official the game is starting back up again :confused: Sounds like the guilty official feels to be a 'man of the people' that's great just not during the game.

Prior complaints are not needed, all it takes is once incident.

I go to game management and tell them there is a problem. Only once has that resulted in the fan getting ejected. Police are on duty at all HS games I work, so I don't concern myself with what goes on after I've notified game mgmt.

Tough situation all the way around. But here's my take.

I've only had to do it once, but if I ask for a fan to be removed, we are not starting until the fan is gone. Same thing in baseball (of which I've had to have several fans removed at the little league level.) I may be in the minority on this, but that's the way it is. If game administration can't remove the fan, then guess what, we are waiting on the police to arrive and deal with the situation, even if it takes an hour. I would be hard pressed to call a forfeit in this situation (I know officials that would), but if I had to call an administrative T, I would. I'd be sure to give the teams head coach plenty of chance to deal with the problem though.

As for communicating with fans, I've seen it done before at all levels, including varsity, in my association. I personally don't have a problem with it as long as it's not interrupting the flow of the game. Generally when I see it happen is in pregame or between quarters. I try not to acknowledge fans during the game, I may have a quick chat or a quick hello before the game if it's somebody I recognize or know, but during the game, I try to be all business on the court. I've worked with partners that I've had to blow my whistle at and tell them "Let's Go!" because they were too busy associationing with fans. To me, that's crossing the line.

I don't think I'd ever give a team a tech for how their fans are behaving. It's not in their control, nor should it be their responsibility. If anybody is to blame for not taking care of the fans it's game administrators, and in that case I'll let my assignor know of the issue and let them handle things.

And besides a quick "hello" or head nod, officials should not be communicating with fans. It's not only unprofessional, but can lead to coaches and/or players from the opposing team to feel they are being unfairly treated. And although it may not be true, it can lead to some bad situations.

To add to my post, there is a difference between telling game administration to deal with a fan and telling game administration to eject a fan. Normally if I have to tell game administration to deal with a fan, it gets done and we have no more issues. The one time I had to tell game administration to remove a fan was because said administration didn't want to handle the issue without being told. Even after telling them to get the fan removed, it still took about 3 warnings of calling the police (we don't always have uniformed officers at games in our area, this is a case that we didn't) the AD finally had the fan removed. I hope I never have to go through that again.

The aftermath of this incident was that I filed my report with my state association and my assignor, was reassigned from my other 2 dates at that location that season, and said AD was not there the following year when I went back, nor have I seen him at any other school in or near my area.

Note 1: I am not an official, worked the table at the game in question. Only reason I notice the official joking with the fans is because he was turned away from the court.

Note 2: This was a fan for the visiting team and the home venue administrators were attempting to remove him already. Giving the home team coach a T seems like a stretch.

I realize the easiest thing is to always have a paid police officer present, but our district hasn't had anyone ejected in at least 6 years (probably longer), and no fights or other issues in over a decade (at least). It's a tough pill to swallow if they have to foot the bill for that every game just in case some official in the future decides to have a thin skin and then ignore the situation. Most schools have "security" that can't touch anyone (except in protection of their safety or others), so having an actual officer would be the only way to get this individual to leave. Because the referee in question made no other demonstration than to walk to the table and ask for the game manager to remove the fan, most of the other fans in the stands assumed it was the home school administration asking him to leave, not the official. Some even started threatening those personnel (which the police subsequently did take care of once they arrived)

Note, the official requesting the ejection wouldn't even tell the game manager why, just said "He needs to go, now."

Other people speaking up for their fellow fan is not our problem. Sorry that happened, but we're there to take care of what happens on the court... not in the stands. If what happens in the stands is having an effect on the game, then we'll take care of it. Otherwise... good luck.

Ever? Not even a fan stepping on the floor or throwing things?

If he is a problem, I am getting rid of them. As stated I have police and security at most games. If they have to go, they have to go. I would not care what happens after the call.

Peace

Okay, I'm sure there are extreme cases when a tech is deserved, but I was thinking more along the lines of what happened in the the OP. Meaning the problem(s) didn't spill onto the court and disturb the game itself.

I agree. And I suspect none of this nonsense would have occurred had the officials not been trying to be Mr. Congeniality with the fans in the first place.

So what if this was a middle school game, or other level with no game manager or security? Let the coach deal with it? Even if it's not their fan?

Would you hold up the game then?

I've joked with a fan or two in the past. I'm there to do a good job, but I'm going to have some fun while I'm there.

If you know for which team the fan is rooting, then have that coach deal with it.

But that would again require holding up the game if you are asking the coach to cross the court and take care of it, right?

I have interacted with fans...but only a few words. I have had them ask how I was doing, just say "Fine". Had one at the start of the 4th quarter of a blow-out say "Real barn burner tonight isn't it?", I just smiled and said "It is what it is."

Now I never have extended conversations, but I am not going to be rude when it is obvious thet are just being polite.

If I've asked game management to remove a fan, I'm not going to expect to have to look over their shoulders while they do it. I'm doing it because he's a distraction, and slowing the game down for him is only feeding the troll. If GM can't get rid of a fan, that's a reflection of their own competence, IMO.

All the stuff about the crew not acting professional is valid, but completely unrelated to whether GM should have been able to remove the fan without the referee getting involved beyond the initial request.

Every site I've been to has someone in charge. MS games, it may well be the home school's coach. Normally there's an AD or a Principal or someone, but not always. If not, it falls to the home coach (not a good situation for a variety of reasons). If it's a summer game, there's normally a tournament or league representative nearby to handle it if necessary, but if not it gets a bit tricky.

If the fan is so unruly that you can't continue the game with him present, you simply stop the game and inform both coaches that you won't be continuing the game until that fan has left the confines.

You say both it's the GM's incompetence and that you would tell both coaches you would wait. So if some poor guy getting $30 to be a game manager is actually there it's not your problem, but if there isn't you'll wait. Why couldn't you wait in both cases?

I'm going to ask you point blank. If you are legally not allowed to do anything other than:

"Sir, the ref has asked to have you removed. Please come with me."

"No, F off. Suck my ----" (words the gentleman used last night).

"Fine, I'm calling the police."

Call to police is made, and GM and AD stand there (continuing to ask him to leave) and wait.

The whole point of the ejection is to punish them by not being able to watch the game in question, which they still get to do since they refuse to leave and you restarted play. Stand at the table for 1 minute, they guy will be pressured to leave (most likely by the visiting team coach, and his son who was on the team). Problem solved, unruly fan gone, situation diffused.

So what would you have them do? You say it's incompetence, so what is your solution? Or are you just going to go with the "it's not my problem" route? Your decision caused this problem so you should have some idea how to solve it if you say they are incompetent. It's rather sad if you don't understand (or care) that your decision forces someone else to have to deal with the repercussions.

I don't think common sense officiating would call for a technical foul in any situation where you have to eject a fan. If a fan is being a problem and needs to be addressed notify game management and continue the game. If the fan needs to leave notify game management and do not restart the game until the fan leaves. Peer pressure will force him out eventually.

A lot of people act up in order to get attention, and by holding up the game you're giving them exactly what they want. And even if they don't care about attention, you're still making the other fans, players, coaches, and staff wait around because of that fool. Essentially, everybody has to pay for his/her crimes. How is that a better way to handle things?

Unless that fan is doing something that keeps me from being able to continue the game, such as running around the court, I'm not holding it up. To be frank, the game isn't about the fans... it's about the players. And I'll be damned if I'm going to make those players, and every other "innocent" person, suffer in any way because of one that a-hole.

If they are interfering with the game, I do not care what attention they are getting, I am having them removed. I do not have to put up with their crap because they choose to be an azz. And if they are ejected in my state, we have reports for that that the school will have to deal with the state. So I am perfectly in my power to have someone removed. If this fool wants to try it, then we will sit there until that time comes. And then everyone else in the gym knows that behaving that way they could result in the same action. And they probably are not coming back either if they make a big deal. Now when I work in those bigger arenas, then it might not be a different situation, but in a HS gym, they are leaving and we are waiting. ;)

Peace

I absolutely did not mean to say I wouldn't have them removed. Just that I wouldn't hold up the game and wait for it to happen.

I guess it all depends on the situation. We could have an unruly fan that is causing a big enough disturbance that we should hold the game up until he/she leaves, or it could be a situation that isn't so bad that we can't keep the game going.

I responded aggressively because I don't like the idea that other people should suffer because of some moron. I see that situation occur in all sorts of situations in life, and it really bothers me.

No, the point of the ejection is to remove a cancer from the gym. I'm not punishing anyone.

The reason I'm not waiting is because waiting is my last resort. If there's GM to handle it, this is their job. My job is what's on the court, and I'm only having the fan removed because he's affecting the job on the court (due to one or more of a variety of behavioral issues). If GM isn't capable of resolving the situation, due to their nonexistence or their incompetence, then sure, I'll hold up the game to help them do their job.

The fact is, I've never seen a GM staff incapable of carrying this out. The fact that this guy sat their waiting for police to arrive tells me he didn't respect the GM at all. I hope he was charged with trespassing when they arrived.

If GM isn't willing or able to back the officials with an unruly fan, you're going to find that it becomes harder and harder to get officials in the long run.

The fact is that it is not my problem. Everybody at the game has a defined role and it doesn't matter if that person is making $30 or $300. My role is to officiate the game. It is the role of game management to handle crowd control. How they do that is up to them. If there is a spectator that needs to be removed, it is game management's responsibility to either remove the individual or call the proper authorities to have said person removed.

I don't expect game management to help me or my partners officiate the game. They should not have any expectation that I will help them do their job either.

Finally, it wasn't the officials actions or decision that forced game management to do their job, it was the unruly fans decisions and actions. Perhaps if game management was more proactive in performing crowd control, then the official would not have had to step in and tell them what needs to be done.

If ejecting a fan would you wait until the fan is removed or resume play? I'm assuming resume play?

It would depend on a number of variables, including but not limited to the reason why the person was asked to leave, and if the person in question was continuing to be a distraction to the game or official while waiting for the proper authority to remove them.

In my first year as an official, I was working a freshman game. During a live ball, an irate lady came charging out of the stands screaming I am going to F***ing kill you. Looked like she was going to steamroll my partner. Instead, she went right past him and onto the visiting team's bench, where she proceeded to beat the daylights out of a player. Turns out, two teammates where beating the hell out of each other on the bench. The kid losing the fight was her son, so she decided to even the odds a little. Needless to say, we had to wait for the police to come in that situation.

Sometimes the best way to deal with a mouthy fan is to get the ball in play and get back to running up and down the court... They stop being the focal point when the game is playing.

I've only had to toss one fan in recent memory. FC throw in baseline, I was T on a 3 whistle crew. She came out of the stands, beer in hand (in a cup, don't ask how she snuck that in), and started giving me the finger screaming in my ear. If play is disrupted, loud profanity, etc. we are not starting the game until that person is out of sight. It makes it tougher on GM when we start play again. Makes it seem like it isn't that big of a problem, in my opinion. More pressure one the fan to leave when we are all just standing there waiting on them.

Yes, either the coach or athletic administrator. If it's a visiting fan, and the visiting coach wants to step it up and assist, fine.

"Kids, back to your benches. This game will not continue until this person is removed."

If I've asked the GM to remove a fan (rather than just to shut them up), it's because the game cannot continue with them there.

To those who say it's not fair to the innocent fans to have to wait, what about those fans who now cannot see the game because of the people standing in the way trying to remove the unruly fan?

If you resume the game, you're making the GM's job much harder because you are taking away leverage for getting the fan out without force.

It's also very surprising that a varsity basketball game doesn't have at lease one officer there on duty in the first place.

I've seen a T called.........
 

Here is the rule and I actually really like how it is worded and basically asks you not to use it. I did see a T called in a district tournament when a father of a player was using the F word and and standing trying to intimidate an official (after refusing to be removed by the game administration). It was amazing how fast the man's son got his butt out the door when the T was called. It is rare, but it definitely can happen........ Just for fun, here's the rule:


2.8.1 SITUATION:

What guidelines should be exercised by the officials when spectators' actions are such that they interfere with the administration of the game?

RULING: The rules book states "the official may rule fouls on either team if its *supporters act in such a way as to interfere with the proper conduct of the game." It is significant to note the word used is "may." This gives permission, but does not in any way imply that officials must call technical fouls on team followers or supporters for unsporting acts. Thus, while officials do have the authority to penalize a team whose spectators interfere with the proper conduct of the game, this authority must be used with extreme caution and discretion. While the authority is there, the official must rarely use it, because experience has demonstrated that calling hasty technical fouls on the crowd rarely solves the problem and may, in fact, result in penalizing the wrong team because the official may not have proper knowledge as to which team's supporters were responsible for the unsporting act.

COMMENT: Responsibility for the behavior of spectators is that of home or game management. The rules book stipulates that insofar as the management can reasonably be expected to control the spectators, it is its responsibility to do so. Home management has the responsibility of providing a site where the game can proceed in a sporting manner. If the conduct of spectators prohibits the orderly continuance of a game, the officials should have a representative of game management take whatever action is necessary. This may require the removal of a team follower(s). This can be done without charging the supporters' team with a technical foul. The advised procedure is for the official to notify game management as to which follower(s) must be removed from the site. The officials may stop the game until host management resolves the situation. Another problem arises when team supporters throw debris, paper, coins, ice or other items on the floor. If the official has positive knowledge as to which supporter(s) threw the items, the official should instruct game management to have the supporter(s) removed from the site. As in the previous case, this can be done without charging the supporters' team with a technical foul. If the official does not have positive knowledge, the official should instruct game management to make a public address announcement stating that the next time debris is thrown on the floor, it will result in a technical foul charged to that supporters' team and will also result in the supporter(s) being removed from the facility. If after the announcement, the situation is not brought under control, the officials may also stop the game until host management resolves the situation. In most situations, after an announcement has been made, game management is very aware of the problem and will usually have positive knowledge as to which supporter(s) threw the items on the floor. If the disruption is not brought under control and the contest cannot safely continue, rather than assess several technical fouls, officials are advised to suspend the game.

This not being the same as a kindergarten classroom, I think this would be a very bad idea. (All you're going to do is humiliate him more than if he were removed by GM. Just think about how he'll behave then...) You've got NO authority to move him to another seat. Either he goes or stays but at that point he's GM's (and maybe the police's) problem.

If it's borderline behavior, I'll just have GM address it. I won't pay attention to how they address it, and it may be something as simple as a quick chat or just sitting in that area for a while.

If the behavior is bad enough that I'm having to ask GM to remove someone, then moving him to another seat is not acceptable. If I find out that's all that was done, I'll include all the information in my report to my assigner and the state.

Many years ago (I have to take my shoes off to count how many) I was working a game for our local rec league. I think it was 8th grade boys. One of the dads just wouldn't quit yelling at me and my partner. At one break, I told him to knock it off or else he would have to leave the premises, and if he didn't do that, I would call the game off and make sure everyone knew it was because of him.

He yelled at me again and said he was going to "report" me to the league's head of officials. I just smiled and replied, "Uh, that would be me." He then said he was going to "report" me to the President of the league. I smiled again and said, "Uh, that would also be me. Anyone else you want to talk to?"

He left.

Depends on response
 

If game administration gets right on the situation I will go on with game while they remove fan. If game administration does not act or it becomes disruptive, game stops until fan is gone. Have never had to eject a fan though.

I rarely speak to fans during "real" games but in summer ball or my local youth league (where sometimes we are also the de facto administrators) I have both addressed problems and conversed casually as the situation allowed but do strongly feel that we should avoid interacting with fans at sanctioned games in order to remain/appear impartial.

'Nough Said ...