By The Book ...
 

I know that this topic has been discussed here on the Forum a while back, but I decided to resurrect it because it really happened in my girls varsity game tonight.

Before the pregame ten minute mark, both head coaches requested to have players' names added to the official book because they expected these players to eventually show up, but due to transportation issues, they would probably be late.

We allowed them to add the names.

By the book, as a written test question, were we correct?

10-1
ART. 2

A team shall not:

After the 10-minute time limit specified in Article 1:
b. Add a name to the team member list.

So, were you correct?

Before the 10-minute mark, they can erase the whole damn roster and replace it with another.

as a test question i dont think it is correct. the team is to provide you with name and number of each "team member." team member is defined somewhere in the book as a player, in uniform, eligible to play.

technically speaking you may have to wait until they show up to add them to the book and then assess the T. i would have done what you did....

I'm not making them wait until the player shows up to add them to the book. If they want to put them in the book, put them in there. That's not a booger I want to pick.

Rule reference please? I'm not seeing it.

So if a team has two vans transporting the kids to a school and the coach/manager arrives in one of them 15 minutes before the scheduled tip-off and submits the roster and then learns that the other van got a flat tire and won't arrive until two minutes before the scheduled start time, are you saying that all of the names of the kids in the second van must have their names removed?
1. That's absurd. 2. There is no rule requiring that.

I had a JV game last week in which a kid forgot his jersey at home, so a parent went back to get it. He warmed up in a t-shirt and was listed in the book as normal with his jersey number. He simply didn't participate until after his parent arrived with his jersey. Now since he wasn't "in uniform" do you believe that he wasn't a team member at the beginning of that contest? He most certainly is a member of the team.

Written Test Question ...
 

Remember, I'm not talking about realistic officiating here. I slept well last night after allowing those names to be added to the book.

I'm really interested in this as a by-the-rulebook written test question, like one of those tricky questions that the NFHS, or IAABO, comes up with every year.

Please continue discussing.

Ok, well article 1 states ...
ART. 1

A team shall not:

Fail to supply the scorer with the name and number of each team member who may participate ...

So, if they show up after the 10 min mark, and the official scorer already has their info, seems like they've met the requirement. Remember, the requirement is to provide the official scorer with the required information. Not make sure they are in the book by the 10 min mark.

Billy, if there's no rule against it....

You handled it properly. The book can be modified up until the ten minute mark without any issue. Players can arrive late as long as their number and name are in the book there shouldn't be any penalty.

HE ASKED IT AS A TEST QUESTION-- NOT REALITY--
Rule 3 says give names and numbers of all TEAM MEMBERS. TEAM MEMBERS are defined 4-34 as players in uniform eligible to participate. just based on these two things i could see a test question and an NFHS answer (absurd) saying players have to be in uniform before you can add them to book.

That would surprise even me. There's no rule against it, it's normal practice (some coaches just submit a full roster every time even if players are sick or academically ineligible for the week), and no one really cares.

The NFHS can come up with some weird rulings, but I'd be shocked if this one ever came out. I'd eat my basketball belt.

If the players aren't there, how do you know they aren't in uniform?

the team member provision is included with the bench person reference. says i think team member IS in uniform and IS eligible to participate. if your not there your not on bench and your not eligible to go in...until you get there..

i have them put everybody down. i'm not arguing player has to be there...im just looking at those two provisions and saying i could see a goofy test question saying they all have to be there...there is the provision saying penalty to add a name to list after 10 minute mark. if you can write them all down to begin with you never have to add a name...

again, im just looking at this as a test type situation. i can see from these provisions that they could declare you have to be there in uniform....before name goes in book...that would be dumb, stupid and every other adjective...but i've seen dumb, stupid before....

With Archival Jurassic Referee Comments ...
 

More fuel for the fire:

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...tml#post510764

And this (below) is what's bugging me:

IAABO Refresher Exam 2005: Question 73. Squad member #45 missed the bus and is not present at the time the squad list and starting lineup must be submitted for team members. During the pregame warmup, the referee counts eleven team members of team A but while checking the book team A has twelve team members listed. Referee informs the coach that the squad member who is not present may not be placed in the book even if he/she will get to the game late. Is the referee correct? Answer: Yes Rule Citation: Rule 3, Section 2, Article 1; Rule 4, Section 34, Article 4

And, even though we allowed the names to be written in the book, I'm still going to sleep well again tonight. Like a baby.

I do not give a darn who is in the book as long as they are eligible to play as any other player that may or may not be there. And since I do not work for an IAABO organization, I do not care what their ruling is. Here if they have 11 players on the court and 15 are listed in the book, I do not care. I will not even ask other than to make sure that they have everyone listed that may play. I do not even get a coach that crosses off names of players that are injured the might have not have made the bus. Why would I care to know a player might not play?

Do not complicate the issue.

Peace

I do work IAABO, and I now recall this horrid and useless interp from IAABO. Frankly, this is another one of those IAABO interps that makes me question their sanity.

Another one is the one Billy posted about the contact on the FT shooter being ignored unless it's flagrant or intentional.

If I see 12 players warming up but only 10 players in the book, I'll say something to the coach to make sure the book is correct.

If I see 10 players warming up and 12 players in the book, we're good.

Supposedly ???
 

If the defender along the free throw lane line breaks the plane of the free throw line, a violation has occurred. Use delayed violation signal. Hold whistle until free throw is completed. If free throw is made, ignore violation; if free throw is missed, award a replacement free throw. (9-1-3-B)

If there is contact on the free throw shooter by the defender who breaks the free throw line plane, ignore contact unless intentional. (9-1-3-B)

According to Peter Webb, Coordinator of Officials for IAABO (International), these rulings supposedly came to him from the NFHS. I'm curious as to why the NFHS has not clarified these rulings in any way that I am aware of. When are NFHS mid-season clarifications usually published?

I have admit I don't know that the NFHS has been much better about this. When the started to fiddle with the intentional foul rule a couple years ago, they seem to have issued conflicting directives to different states.

The following season.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't understand why this is so complicated. If there's a remote chance that team members would become players, what's the harm of putting them in the book in the first place? What's the harm of putting them in the book, even if they're injured and can't play?

Ignore live ball contact unless it's intentional? Since when?

Billy asked if this were a test question would he have been correct allowing names to be put in book of players not present. there's no harm in putting names in early which is why we all allow it. however, when you read the provisions cited above, the definition of "team member" in the rules, there is an argument that players have to be in uniform and present before they can be put in the book. if you could put everyone in early there would be no reason to have a penalty for adding names after the 10 minute mark. again, it's dumb, no harm in it etc and im filing this right next to some of the multiple fouls. but if there's a test question i have a strong feeling that the correct answer would say players have to be present and in uniform before they can be put in book.

Players around here all wear warm-ups, so I don't go around checking to make sure each one has an actual uniform on underneath them.

Homeless In My Little Corner Of Connecticut ...
 

This (below) complicates it. I got it wrong nine years ago, and it still sticks in my craw.

IAABO Refresher Exam 2005: Question 73. Squad member #45 missed the bus and is not present at the time the squad list and starting lineup must be submitted for team members. During the pregame warmup, the referee counts eleven team members of team A but while checking the book team A has twelve team members listed. Referee informs the coach that the squad member who is not present may not be placed in the book even if he/she will get to the game late. Is the referee correct? Answer: Yes Rule Citation: Rule 3, Section 2, Article 1; Rule 4, Section 34, Article 4

Back in 2005, I would have bet my house that IAABO would make a correction on this question, and would change the correct answer to "No".

I'm now homeless.

And I still haven't lost any sleep (I sleep under a bridge) because we allowed the names to be added to the book Friday night.

Stupid IAABO. Who died and made them the king?

Not The Officials, Hopefully ...
 

Players going commando? Interesting.

This feels like a thread that would come up in June when we have nothing else to talk about.

Hmmm, never saw that before. I'd fall back on Roman Law.

Monday Night Raw: IAABO Versus NFHS ...
 

Please note that this is an IAABO exam question, not a NFHS exam question. IAABO exam questions are supposed to be based on NFHS rules, key phrase, "supposed to".