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Gender Wars....
Our Association has been instructed by the schools not to send female officials to do boys varsity contests. (Yes, males are allowed to work girls games).
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Our association has several women who work boys games, at the highest level. Our association is also the first in Texas to have a female official work the boys state finals. She's damn good. Times are changing. Your association seems to be going the other way.
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I hope the first thing your association does is send three women to work their next BV game. :rolleyes:
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Ridiculous. Is there any way that the state high school league can intervene?
Some of the top-rated officials in my state are females. We've had females work boys state championships before. And I agree with the above posters. |
I didn't realize that possession of specific genitalia was a requirement to officiate boys basketball.
Is this just a couple of schools, or is it an entire conference (or worse)? Either way, that's seriously messed up... |
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1. they probably won't do either. but the point is to let somebody on their end know this isn't going to go away. 2. if they list the schools, send it to each school board identified and ask them if this is truly the position of this district in 2014…. 3. also mail it to local newspaper and tv station. Schedule your season as you normally would. don't load them up with women but don't change for their benefit. if they turn woman away see number 3. good luck. |
Just turn the request over to your local TV station. That should fix that.
Or, send 3 male officials from your rookie class...3 that really don't know what is going on yet. When they call to complain, tell them you had 3 highly qualified women that could have worked the game but they asked for men. :D |
More Info Needed
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B. Is it correct that your association assigns officials solely based on aptitude and merit? Answers to these questions are significant for a worthwhile discussion. Otherwise the whole thing becomes nothing more than a politically correct exercise in feel-goodism. |
Being instructed to do something and actually doing it are two different things.
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In South Carolina, officials typically work a doubleheader (girls game followed by a boys game), so a request like that would not only be denied, but infeasible. Our state would say that if you don't want certain officials, put them on your mark-off list in Arbiter. But if you fill it up with females, then you're risking getting assigned some of the lower-tier males. It's really that simple.
I do like the suggestion of turning it over to the media. |
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If you want to have some real fun, have one of the female officials in your association contact an attorney. I'll bet the attorney would take this one for free, and it would be a very quick return. There are so many options here. |
Contact your local chapter of the ACLU. They'll love to take on this fight for you and probably at no charge.
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All I can say is that it is very uncommon that any female works a boys basketball game at the varsity level. But on the flip side women get a lot of great opportunities and girls or NCAAW basketball usually faster than men at the same level of experience or opportunities. And it is not uncommon either that anyone that works a lot of girls do not get a lot of boys opportunities either in the regular season or post season. So I guess it would be hard here to complain of who you send to a game.
Peace |
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and if any of those schools make the state quarterfinals, best believe Joyce will send one or two females to their game. |
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Also, depending upon how your pay system works, I would remind those schools that they will pay the crew at the full rate if the schools refuse to play. Let them go argue that one out in court. |
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And yes, I assign varsity basketball for 20 schools. With women on staff that work boys games. |
If women are good enough to work in the NBA and college football, they're good enough to work high school basketball games.
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I cannot express enough how badly I want to know how this turns out.
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Peace |
One thing: In Virginia if these are private schools, there is nothing the state body (VHSL) can do.
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Assuming (I have seen no written documentation from the schools)
[a] the communication was "back channel"... ie nothing written down... and [b] knowing the implied threat of losing contracts (There is a larger, well respected BB Association in our area who would be glad to replace us). Would we continue to "poke the bear" and lose our Association or would we knuckle under? BNR--- These are VHSL schools |
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BNR, Lcubed48 and any others from your group,
My apologies for any slight of your group. I do not have ANY reason to have anything but respect for what you guys do. It is simply a fact of life for us that you are where our customers go if they become dissatisfied (Ft Lee Christmas tourney, Lawson Classic, for example). |
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If I were your association I wouldn't let the schools try to strong-arm you with this tactic. Believe me, I know all too well what these schools around here are capable of doing/saying "off the record". It's the reason I ref public schools in Richmond instead of my local area. |
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Peace |
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IMHO, it doesn't really matter if your association (or mine, or anyone's) has 3 female officials available to work a particular game in a particular place on a particular night.
What matters is the fact that one or more schools (or individual administrators in those schools) would even make this request, even "off the record." It's 2014, not 1914... |
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Peace |
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Men, who did not play, who did not even have an athletic background get into officiating a lot more than a big time female athlete that might have coached, we cannot get them into the ranks. I can hardly think of 10 females in my area that work a heavy high school schedule. Almost all of them work college ball. Peace |
I understand the point JRut is trying to make. I also understand that it might not be completely relevant to the discussion. I think a more relevant point, at least where me and JRut work is that most coaches and players do not like to have officials that work both boys/mens and girls/womens sides working their games regardless of gender. On this point I happen to agree. I realize it is the norm in some areas to work both genders. That is definitely not the case here. Additionally, I think the official that can work both genders well is few and far between. Officiating like playing is a matter of practice and repetition. No matter what the political correctness police would have you believe, there is a big difference between how the mens and womens games are played, and the expectations of what is and isn't going to be called. Because of those differences, I find the few games each season I have to work with someone that does both genders (HS or college) to be the least comfortable games I have each season. I can completely understand why a coach or team would not want these officials on their games. Now if the female official works all or mostly mens games, then I do not see a problem.
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It is relevant if you send female (or male) officials that do not have experience working boys basketball. And I bet that was part of the problem in this case. And that is also why many that work deep in the girls playoffs here, do not work deep in the boys playoffs (and vice versa). There are men that work the girls game and do not have respect for the game and do not call what is expected even with a lot of experience. And there are officials that have very little boys basketball experience and are in over their heads when working those games.
Peace |
what is relevant in Virginia is that the head of the VHSL has made it clear that gender should not play any part in assigning boys or girls games.
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Here, schools are assigned by the state to each organization based on geography. Those on the bordering areas and request for a change but they have to have a good reason. New organizations can and do form but it keeps most of the underhandedness out of it. If there is a real problem, then the schools can get a change, but they have to justify it. |
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Peace |
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Peace |
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That rant aside, there are really two ways to deal with this: 1. The court of public opinion - go to the news with it. or 2. The court - a decent law student could probably handle the case |
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And unless we know the correspondence of what is requested by people that are independent contractors, we really need to take a step back. I do not see anyone suing college conferences that clearly have not hired any women on the Men's side and hire men all the time Women's college basketball. Even then I believe a lawsuit would be hard if there was a court case in either situation and I doubt there is much of a paper trail to prove that women are not hired systematically. Part of what we do is tribal and people tend to make a business decision as to where they spend their time away from home. Peace |
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In 2, there's no way to document anything. If the schools are already negotiating a switch to another association, then there'd be no way to prove "why" they switched. Chances are, they may switch even if the new association doesn't even discuss it. It would simply be a way to punish the first association. It would be great if the leadership in the new association decided to follow through on our suggestions, however, and ensure the schools had a steady stream of female officials: even if those officials weren't quite ready for varsity schedules. |
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But I'm the type who would bring this out in an association meeting so the rumor would either have to be verified or discounted. |
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Peace |
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Like I said earlier, if this were my association I would stand up in the middle of a meeting and bring this to full light by asking for an official response concerning the rumors. It is either true or it is false. |
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Peace |
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[QUOTE=DRJ1960;944402]If, by "the right thing", you mean Associational Suicide (which would be the result of disregarding the "request" from the Schools) then I would think not.[/QUOTE
Here's my take on "associational suicide". 1. -tell schools women are qualified and we are sending them...no more or no less women than in past years. Seems like the right thing to do. But if you do the schools may change associations. 2. Go along with schools and tell your women officials they're qualified but not going because they are women. See Covington v IAABO. Can be found on net. Covimgton, woman official, claims discrimination for not being assigned mens games. Maybe your women will just walk away and forget it. However, if they don't, your association will be a defendant since you have involvement in assigning. The commissioner has put you folks in quite a trick bag. I think I'd try door number one if I were you...actually see earlier post on what to do. And do it because It is the right thing to do... |
If they would leave because of that, then they are going to go anyway.
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What I imagine the schools would say is "our commissioner, he's a little round ( as in not sharp). We sent him there to say we needed better officials for our games..don't send us officials who aren't up to job...." Commissioner may say I meant don't send any official including those women because they are not up to job. Not because of being a woman... May come down to whether the women in the association are competent--and if somebody decides to take it on. I guess what I would like to think is that if a school or group of schools said "don't send BigCat, because we just don't want cats,"- someone in my association, my association as a group, would stand up for me. try to help me. One for all all for one sort of deal.... I've never been a fan of "every man for himself." |
That is the problem. These kinds of relationships are the ultimate problem. So glad we do not have them here. But we seem to be the exception.
Peace |
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That said, I think the best response would be to simply write them a letter: Dear sirs, We have received your request that we only send male officials to your boys basketball contests. After discussing it with our attorneys, we have come to the conclusion that it is simply not a lawful request so we must respectfully decline your request. Sincerely, |
schools hire an association. Associations determine how the commissioner's slot is filled. The Commissioners work for the association and negotiate contracts on behalf of the associations.
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I think it would be best for the association to talk to lawyer before acting. Better to get some guidance now than have to clean up huge mess later. Example: school person who thought it was ok to say "no women" through "back channel." Bad idea...big mess.... |
Unfairly Limit Officiating Assignments ...
I'm having some trouble following the legal aspects of this discussion, but, for what it's worth (maybe nothing, strike that, probably nothing), here's part of our local Code Of Ethics And Conduct For Board Members:
Board members shall not be party to actions designed to unfairly limit or restrain access to officiating, officiating assignments or association membership. This includes selection for positions of leadership based upon economic factors, race, creed, color, age, sex, physical disability, country of national origin. Here in Connecticut, our local IAABO boards hire commissioners who are responsible for assigning regular season games, and said commissioners are also local board members. To inject some Devil's' advocate silliness into this thread, we already have one deaf official (who is quite good). What happens when a legally blind person, or a person in a wheelchair, wants to become an official? Are there limits? Can anyone (short of not passing a criminal background check) be denied? What if they can't pass the written rule test, or the floor exam, due to a physical disability? Will the civil liberty lawyers get them out of "non-officiating jail"? I'm a retired middle school teacher, and we had to adjust exams for various physical, and mental, disabilities for many students. Will we have to give our written rules exam in a language other than English, like they do for our State Department of Motor Vehicles drivers license exam? Braille? Another random thought: After perusing the "list", I find it interesting that sexual orientation is not included in our local Code above. Is anything else missing? What if a faith-based school requests that no gay officials be assigned there? Again, these are random thoughts. Curiosity killed the cat, and, maybe, can kill BillyMac. Man, this is a complicated topic, that can make your head spin, whether you're a conservative, or a progressive. https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.6080...8&pid=15.1&P=0 |
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What raises the red flags are the big ones...race, sex etc. Billy, you are fired because you are African American or because you are a woman. And even if one of those IS really the reason you are being fired, employers will never say it to you or admit it. A person can sue the employer and claim they were fired for race but if employer can point to anything else, you don't know rules, too slow, you name it...they win. |
These Facts Are Not In My Profile ...
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Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid ...
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If this association doesn't want females officiating boys games, what do they do with females coaching boys teams?
I can think of a few big schools with women who are the head coach of a boys varsity/JV or middle school teams. One school has a woman coaching each of those levels. One association I work with has 240 +/- officials, 10 are female, 6 only work subvarsity. Odds say you're getting a male, probably 2-3 most nights regardless of the gender of the participants. |
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The association has a commissioner who handles all contract negotiations with schools and conferences. |
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AremRed: WOW! Padgett and I are ancient but even I have officiated boys' games with female coaches. MTD, Sr. |
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Peace |
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I have never come across a female coach in boy's HS basketball.
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Female Coaches ...
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However, there is no requirement that an NCHSAA regional supervisor (assignor) has to assign private schools while those same private schools are instructed that they have to use NCHSAA officials. Advantage: Officials and supervisor |
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Are they private schools? Perhaps that's been answered and I missed it. Where are they going if they leave your association? |
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If you read through the thread just for his and my responses you'll see pertinent info. |
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