Sunglasses Technical Foul
 

So I need some insight on this situation..
Middle School girls scrimmage, late in the game with two teams tied...
B1 has the ball near her arc when A1 bumps her with her hip. I call the block. When i reported the foul, Team A's assistant coach jumps out of seat going beserck, because he felt the foul should go on A2 instead of A1. The guy had his sunglasses resting on his forehead (I guess because he forgot to take them off when he came in) and spins around and chunks them at the empty practice court adjacent to the main court. They shatter into several pieces. I call a T on this, and he slowly calms down as I speak to the head coach about this. Was the situation handled right? Was the T warranted? What would you have done?

You're not seriously second-guessing this technical, are you?

First of all, I do not have high tolerance for misbehavior in scrimmages.

Not only was the T warranted, but I think you may have even waited too long. You could've called it the second the AC jumped out of his seat. ACs do not get to question calls and jump off the bench. Period.

Call it as soon as he jumps out of his seat to protest. Then he throws the sunglasses. He's gone in my game.

Any time something is thrown to the ground in disgust, that is a T. See Coach K in the ACC final last year.

Funny story.. One of his shades landed right on my gear bag... I kept it for the memory.

Depending on how the game has gone, I'm okay with not necessarily going immediately to a T. This could be a perfect opportunity to give a head coach a chance to get this under control.

As far as the T...an overt action like described can't be ignored. I have no problem with handing a T.

Coincidentally enough, I had a scrimmage tonight, too. One of the head coaches wanted to complain about every call against his team. He got a warning from me, I called a PC foul on one of his guys to which he said "HE WAS STILL MOVING" and one of my partners whacked him there.

Like I said, I do not put up with a lot in scrimmages. If you penalize bad behavior in scrimmages, it may end up preventing misbehavior once the real games start. Of course, I'm not sure why coaches insist on acting poorly in a scrimmage, anyway. :confused:

Tech when the coach stood up yelling. Flagrant tech if I didn't whack him before he threw the glasses. You don't get to do that.

A scrimmage and an AC complains about who is charged with the foul to the point of throwing his sunglasses across the gym, and you are 2nd guessing your T? And this is 7th grade girls? What does he do if one of the kids gets a play wrong in practice? I'd say the jerk has no business being around 11 year old kids in the first place. I'd whack him, tell him to go pick up the pieces, report it to the principal and toss him if he said another word.

edit: We aren't allowed to keep score at scrimmage in these parts or in other parts I've been in.

This is a typo i hope. He wasn't going berserk because you called it on the wrong girl on his team was he? I'm assuming he thought it was a charge on B1? Either way, u did the right thing, of course. If there was a delay between berserk and throwing the shades, then he deserved two T's.

Do you mean a scrimmage with two different teams or a scrimmage with the same program?

Peace

I wasn't there, of course, but I'm not sure there was any reason to speak to the head coach about this.

I'm speaking to him about how the scrimmage will not continue until the AC leaves.

I'm generally hitting this T as soon as I notice the AC has jumped up to complain like that. I'll usually let the HC handle his bench, but this, to me, rises above the point where I'm willing to do that.

If I get the T called before he whips around and tosses the shades (very likely), he'll get a second one for the second act of his show. If I'm slow and don't get it until after the toss, I'll settle for one.

And a preseason scrimmage is perfect for this. AC gets to learn a lesson in behavioral expectations, essentially, for free.

Was the T warranted???? Are you kidding? I have TWO T's here.

I had a supervisor, in another state who's since passed away, who said...

"We're there working for free. We don't give technical fouls. We put the ball on the table and go to the house. Then a coach gets to do it..."

We get paid for scrimmages here.

+1. Scrimmages are the perfect opportunity to 1) stress new rules (10-6-12) and 2) set standards for behavior that will not be tolerated once the season starts. I did both last night. Again, why coaches misbehave in scrimmages is beyond me, but use it as a teaching opportunity if it does happen.

As an aside, we do not get paid for scrimmages in South Carolina.

Whack when he jumps up and then heave ho when he throws the glasses. As others have said, you are not really second guessing this are you?

You beat me to it.

MTD, Sr.

I too probably would have whacked him earlier. Assistants are to be seen, not heard.

Not in my little corner of VA, unfortunately. :(

Why would ANYONE take crap in a scrimmage where they aren't being paid? We're doing them a favor.

Not a chance in the world I am working a game at any level for free other than camp games. I would not be available for scrimmages. No way am I leaving work early or taking away from family time to work a game for free.

We work them free here, they appreciate it. I'm pretty sure any crap would be shut down by the HC before I had to deal with it.

+1

No, I am not second guessing the T, I am just asking your opinions on this situation... I mean how many Ts have you given for an AC throwing the shades?:D

In a preseason scrimmage, I may talk to the head coaches to see if they want to actually shoot the free throws.

Here, newer officials have the chance to officiate at pre-season scrimmages for experience and feedback from veteran officials and/or association trainers.

Last year, I signed up for the two-person Saturday scrimmage so I could get feedback on my strengths and areas of improvement. I found the experience largely positive.

The following weekend, my assignor asked me to attend a scrimmage where he'd do something similar with his first and second-year officials. I wasn't expecting it to be a varsity scrimmage given the fact some of the officials had yet to officiate an actual game. :eek:

At that scrimmage, I had a coach disagree with a no-call and tell me "Blow the d--- whistle." I immediately whacked him... only to have my partner and the veteran official tell me after the period ended that I shouldn't be T'ing coaches at a scrimmage. :confused: I wouldn't let a coach do it in a game, and I don't see why a scrimmage should be any different in that regard.

Here we work scrimmages for a weekend out of goodwill, it's a standard, and most are expected to give it a few games. There is no way, absolutely none, that I would accept any grief from any coach or player in those games.

Agreed, but this is my first year as an official... And I'm 16 :/

Coaches do not have any problems giving me the business up and down the court. If I T 'em for this every time, there won't be any coaches on the floor, and my assignors will take notice, give me grief, and probably pull my assignments.

On the other hand, If I let bench personnel walk all over me, my games quickly turn to crap. It's hard being a rookie:confused:

Ignore statements (Except for them screaming at you), answer questions...do that and you'll be on the right track.

Paid Scrimmages ...
 

We get paid for all scrimmages here in Connecticut. $50.00 each (two officials), or $33.00 each (three officials, with one official rotating out every period), for six periods (maximum of two hours).

Years ago we used to volunteer, and sign up, for scrimmages. Most were free, some paid a small stipend (twenty bucks for gas, laundry, lunch), some gave us pizza, grinders, T-shirts, etc.. Then our state interscholastic sports governing body made some changes because many sports (not basketball, but sports like field hockey, lacrosse, etc.) were having a difficult time getting officials to work their scrimmages, so now all scrimmages, for all sports, are paid, and all are assigned by assignment commissioners, in the same manner as games.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3775/1...8029f778_m.jpg

Find a mentor who can help you with this issue -- you're right it's hard. What you need is tools that work for you in between nothing and the T. Different referees use different tools -- warning looks, stop signs, "that's enough," "coach, please let it go." Different tools work for different referees - and what works for the 60-year-old vet ain't necessarily gonna work for you. But there are tools out there you can use so that when you whack the coach he knows he earned it.

(I was an 11 year old soccer referee many, many moons ago, so I get where you are coming from -- I tossed a coach when I was 12 . . . I also did basketball as a teenager but that was in a church school league that didn't really have a lot of coach issues, so I don't have a great tool set to share -- soccer control tools can be a bit different due to the difference in the setting.)

To give back and show I'm not above it all. :D

I believe my HS associations contracts are written that schools are afforded a set amount of free scrimmages.

We are "required to work ~ 4 free scrimmages, and I don't mind it one bit.

I enjoy prepping for the season and make my $ later in the year.

Say what you will.

PS - I get to pick my games/schools and don't have to travel far. I truly love my avocation.

I love working, too, but I'm not going to allow myself to get worked in a scrimmage.

It is one thing to willing volunteer your time. It is a something significantly different for the schools, association, or assignor to expect or demand people donate their time.

I have been told (you know how that works:rolleyes:) that Central VA schools may pay a travel fee for scrimmages and it goes into our associations kitty to balance out the schools we "low bid" during the season. That way all regular games pay the same fee.
Theoretically....

It's in the contracts, part of negotiations. No strong arming involved.

I still have not gotten an answer yet to this question. Are these regular games or game like situations cloaked in a pre-season event? Because a scrimmage here is a inter-squad contest which is often very informal and not very heated. The only time I have ever thought of giving a T in any of these type of games, was as a gag that the coaches were in on the gag. I cannot even imagine a coach getting that upset over any call. And if they got upset, a T would not come to mind.

Also, some pay. Others do not. And usually we bring multiple officials to them so the guys can work and get to see ball they normally might not see. We use these as training opportunities more than anything. That is why I cannot understand a coach getting that upset over all call.

Peace

Well, on this particular day, I worked 4 games. This was the last game of the night and according to the crowd and the coaches that were waiting for their games to start, I was sucking. So naturally, near the end of my last game of the day, I'm worn out. Yes these we're two different teams with two coaches both as energetic and wild as could be toward their players and my partner and I. But I didnt have problems with either HC. This was probably just an AC with anger issues....
One of the reasons I started this thread was to hear opinions of giving technicals in scrimmages and preseason. Assignors seem to not like it. Veterans tell us it's a bad idea.. But it's what an official would do in a regular contest. Why is there a difference between a T in a scrimmage vs. a T in a game?

And to settle it, no thiese games did not pay, but guess who got free pizza before he got ran out of the gym:D

No T from me, just insistence that I won't continue without AC leaving.

Now the situation makes a little more sense to me. Teams cannot play each other before the actual season starts. So we have no such conflict like what was described.

Peace

Ok?

The schools, Ohio, (and SE Michigan) pay the officials for the scrimmages. I don't know of any official who would expose himself, liability wise, and not be compensated for his work.

MTD, Sr.

The difference is that these games are for the players to get in a practice game or two before the regular season starts. And for them and the coaches to get used to the new rules/points of emphasis. Because the games don't count, there shouldn't be much complaining if they think u missed a call. Also, around here, we usually play 6 quarters and reset the score after each quarter. Don't even count team fouls, so no one's ever in foul trouble. Only shoot free throws on shooting fouls. So, it's a bad idea to be handing out technicals, because everyone should be chill. Sounds like in your game, at least one team was treating it like the State finals.

What was the format of your scrimmage? Exact same rules as a regular game (4 quarters, shoot 1-and-1 at 7 fouls in half, etc...)?

Also - u never answered my previous question. U said the team A was upset because u called the foul on A2 instead of A1. Did u mean to say B2? Or, did they think u had the wrong guy on team A?

Mark,

In Illinois the minute you register with the state association you are covered by a million dollar insurance policy. This policy covers not only high school related events but grade school, ymca, etc whether you are paid or not. Check with your state. You likely have something similar.

Also, referees aren't losing cases. A thread for another day. As basketball official, if player is hurt--don't play doctor unless you are one. And give them all the time in the world to get the person off the Court. Don't Rush them. ...and don't hit anybody...

Curious, are you working high school?

Regardless, don't let them ride you. I promise you it won't take as many technical fouls as you think.

Give a quick warning, "coach that's enough."
If/when he continues, whack.
Next game, same thing.

You'll find that most coaches will get it and adjust before you have to issue a 2nd T. Be consistent, be firm. You'll eventually learn to converse with them and defuse situations; but in the mean time, the T works great to help you focus on the game.

When you give a T, listen to your partner's feedback after the game or at half time, learn from it if you can. Some partners will give you stupid feedback: smile and nod, brain dump it later.

As others have noted, there are other ways of dealing with the situation in scrimmages.
1. You can call the T (it's not as big a deterrent in these games, though).
2. You can stop the game, walk over to the HC and calmly explain that he needs to either control or remove his AC if this game is going to continue with your assistance.

In this case, I would have said it loud enough to embarrass the AC, but not yelling. Both benches would have heard it, and my voice carries well enough that most of the gym would have heard it as well.

The T doesn't have the same impact because no one really cares who wins, the coaches are looking for game simulations. Most of these "games" won't even shoot the free throws anyway.

No, you don't take the crap from the bench, ESPECIALLY when you're working for free. But there are more effective ways to deal with it. What you did worked, so I wouldn't sweat it too much.

If your local feedback is that there are other ways to deal with it, I hope they've provided alternative options rather than just saying, "I wouldn't have done that in a scrimmage."

Yes that's exactly how these games were and I should say they were more complex than your average scrimmage. Our association assigned us these scrimmages to mimic regular games, because they were our last scrimmages before the regular season. So our assignors informed the coaches of this and tried to make these scrimmages as close to regular games as possible.

Thank you Adam, and let me just say, my partner was one of those guys you ask to not work with in the future :/

\

Our scrimmages are not paid. Mandated to do at least 1 and they are assigned. They are with 2 or maybe 3 schools. No fouls counted. If we shoot FTs at all, it will be 1 shot on a shooting foul. Do not keep score. 4 officials rotating in. 6 quarters.

Whether a team keeps score is more on the coach and what they want out of the scrimmage. But it is not unusual that we shoot every FT and play normally without the fouls being kept.

Peace

Currently listening to the online state clinic. They have specific regulations for scrimmages.

Per state rules, officials are forbidden from being paid to work scrimmages or jamborees (3 or more teams); we may only receive a minimal travel fee. Each school is allowed participate in a max of 2 scrimmages/jamborees.

We are not under those regulations here. I worked Friday at a scrimmage near my house and was paid in cash on the spot. But again this is what makes this place very interesting is to hear how things are done very differently.

Peace

All I need to know in this story is the AC....had this happen in a BV jamboree two weeks ago minus the sunglasses. Like most on here I HATE having to give T's during jamboree type games but I didn't want to set a precedence of what I would accept later in the year. Sure enough, I get that team's home opener and the AC was a complete gentleman (even though they lost a close game). Either way, I have a very short leash with ACs...

In my association, if we want to get assignments, we must work scrimmages. If we want to work post season, we must accumulate a certain number of points and we can get points for working scrimmages (2 max points). Most of us work an average of 3 scrimmages - I worked 4 this season. We don't get paid - the school pays the association what they would typically pay us. The format is typically 2 to 4 schools participate and they have us (usually 5-6 people are assigned to a court) for up to 3 hours. They can do whatever they want during that time: play a full game, just quarters, game situations...whatever they choose. It's a way for everyone to get ready for the season. People gripe about it, but it's really not that big of a deal.

Coaches are almost always well behaved - they worry about their players and they rarely worry about the officiating. Sometimes when a rookie makes mistakes or someone clearly is in over their heads, they get a little frustrated, but I've never seen anyone get really upset during a scrimmage.

Up to 3 hrs. each time and you have to do a minimum of 2 of them. Of course people gripe about it, most people's time is worth something. 6+ hrs. of free officiating is absolutely ridiculous. Even for people who place little to no value on their time, giving up family/personal time is a cost as well. If the schools cannot afford to pay officials to have a scrimmage, than they don't need to play any scrimmages or they can have their coaches officiate. We have lots of ways available to us to prepare for the season, working for free is not one of them!

I understand what you're saying. We have very little bargaining power, though. If we want to be assigned (decent) games, we better work our scrimmages. And if we want to work the playoffs, we better work the scrimmages. Here in Texas, districts/schools and coaches have way more power than they should. It's a massive conflict of interest, but it's the way it is. The association is just as focused on pleasing the schools and coaches as it is in pleasing the officials, because the districts can choose which associations they use. And coaches can choose which officials they want (or don't want) when it comes to district play and playoffs.

:confused:

How is this about the power of the schools if, as you said in your prior post, the schools are paying the game fee to the assoication rather than you? :confused: Sounds like this is, more or less, association dues, not something the schools are dictating.

It's hard to be 16 and trying to officiate HS games. Many adults have trouble respecting someone of that age and having the teenager in the role of the authority figure.

My opinion is that people still in HS should only work summerball or recreational leagues because of these aspects as well as the problem with being an independent contractor at that age.

In my years of officiating, I've had to T coaches for throwing the following items: clipboard, water bottle, towel, pen, jacket, and the game ball.

Please explain how an independent contractor can be "required" to work anything, especially for free. :eek:

Both of these are examples of poor negotiating on behalf of the association.
People should not "low bid" and sell themselves short just to get a contract, nor is it right to make that money up in a round-about manner.

The second quote is truly disturbing as the association leadership can only contract to cover the contests, but not require the independent contractors to do so. Someone needs to have a stern chat with your association leadership.

I actually LIKE working ONE scrimmage before the season starts. It's a chance to give back by working with brand new officials to get them on the court in a learning environment, and I get to stretch my legs. My first game this year is a big school grudge match between a couple top in the state teams. I would rather my first whistle of the season not be in that game. I get to warm up, kids get to warm up, most importantly new officials get to warm up.

That being said, I am not getting yelled at while I'm donating my time. I would probably walk over and calmly let him/her know "a week from now, that would get your opponents some free throws. Can we continue now?"

Private organizations can have requirements for membership, correct?

Plus, as stated in subsequent post, state rules prohibit pay for scrimmages. So the entire state's officials would have to stand together in revolt.

Plus, oddly enough, of all the things I dislike about the business of officiating, this is a practice that doesn't bother me. I look at it as an extension of annual training, making sure that all officials have at least blown the whistle once before the regular season.

Compared to the expensive and time-consuming expectations and requirements college supervisors have, this is relatively harmless to me.

Maybe, maybe not. All negotation is give and take. A contract that provides for free scrimmage coverage is not ipso facto worse for the referees than one that pays for the scrimmages. (Extreme example: would you rather work two free scrimmages and then get paid $100 per ref per game for three man games or get paid $50 for scrimmages and $50 per ref per game and do 2 man?) You can't condemn the negotiators without knowing what the contract was before that they were working from, what the members told them they wanted, and what they got in exchange for what they gave up.