Stack on throw-in
 

I'm assuming everyone knows what I mean when the offensive team stacks their players on a throw-in. Can the defensive team insist on getting between players? I'd like to know for NFHS rules or NCAA rules in case there is a difference. Also for the few of you who work or know FIBA rules, is there a provision allowing the defensive team to get between the offensive players?

The reason I'm asking is that I can't find anything in FIBA rules that would stop the offense from doing this. I'm thinking perhaps it comes from our American neighbours (or neighbors).

NFHS - No. Unless you mean the stack is adjacent/parallel with, and within 3 feet of, the line.

I don't know if college is different

It's common myth that the defense is allowed in between.

I don't know that there is a written rule. But the application here is that we allow teams to give space if defense wants it.

There may not be rules support but on dead balls before the at the disposal of the inbounder while we deal with the table, coaches, subs etc. We certainly don't want defense actively tagging/defending or engaging players on the floor. Which is what they would have to do to ostensibly force the other team into setting moving screens in order to get their stack set up. To avoid this if the defense tries to get in the stack we just tell the stack to give room. To avoid unsportsmanlike dead ball fouls we just tell them to give room.

Probably comes from people applying the NBA rule to lower levels. In the NBA, the defender would be allowed to get in between

End of Rule 7 for nfhs and ncaa. By "stack" I assume you are talking about a line perpendicular to end line or sideline.
Defense is not allowed in. As Bryan said, in high school if players line up parallel/ side by side to the end line within 3 feet of it they have to be let in. ncaa says within 6 feet and parallel they have to be let in. Ncaa actually has provision saying teammates can be adjacent if perpendicular.

And the myth gets reinforced. :(

There Already Is A Written Rule ...
 

https://c1.staticflickr.com/7/6230/6...473e048e_m.jpg

Let's go to the videotape:

THROW-IN ADMINISTRATION 7-6-5: Teammates shall not occupy adjacent positions which are parallel
to and within 3 feet of the boundary line if an opponent desires one of the positions.

7.6.5 SITUATION: Prior to a throw-in on the end line near A’s basket, A1, A2
and A3 line up shoulder-to-shoulder parallel to the line and: (a) within 3 feet of it;
or (b) more than 3 feet from it. In both cases, Team B requests space between
the Team A players. RULING: In (a), the request is granted and a Team B player
may position between each of the Team A players. In (b), the request is denied.

Not to be confused with:

JUMP-BALL ADMINISTRATION 6-3-3: Teammates may not occupy adjacent positions around the center
restraining circle if an opponent indicates a desire for one of these positions before the referee is ready to toss the ball.

You were just baiting Billy, right Bob? :p

Billy, he wasn't talking about parallel positions, so there is no rule (which means what he's doing isn't supported by rule).

Confucius Says ...
 

If it's not illegal, then it's legal.

Or, from a slightly different viewpoint: There is no rule that prohibits the throw-in team from positioning its players as close together as they want either in a stack perpendicular to the boundary or adjacent parallel to the boundary with the exception that you gave from the rule book and casebook.

There are already rules to deal with this. Call the first foul before the offense "has" to set an illegal screen.

There is one positive aspect to the way things run around here. We can't go making crap up. If we do and the coach calls us on it, our butts are going to be in the sling.

You realize that parallel and perpendicular are opposites, right?

Just How Often Do We See Alexander Pope Quoted Here On The Forum ???
 

I was merely citing the "real" rule that some non-officials often confuse with the "mythological" rule, while also citing a situation where alternate team players are the rule, i.e., the jump ball circle.

"A little learning is a dangerous thing." (Alexander Pope, 1709)

I don't think we can narrow it so much.

I don't disagree but I would like a solution it the situation it creates:

Team A wants to run an inbounds play where they stack 4 players front to back. Lined up facing the ball.

Team B does not want to allow players to stack so same as in during games play deny their player the ball and try to beat them to spots.

Now you've got live defense being played during a dead ball which means that Team A is going to respond by 1) playing live back (sprint to spots, cutting to get screen angles, etc). 2) Or they are simply going to walk and try to bump push or illegally screen defenders out of the way to get their stack set up.

I'm ok with calling the foul on either team who commits it during the dead ball but you are turning time when one official may be reporting a foul, communicating with table or confering with other officials into a potential moment where players are competeing for space and angles and potentially fouling without even a live ball in a race to spots. If post players where jostling for position during a dead ball we would tell them to knock it off. If one team wants to stack and want team wants to play denial you are setting up a situation where they may need to compete at live speed during dead balls.

I only bring it up because before we started making the stack give room thats what was happening. As soon as a violation or OOB was called and the offense called for their inbounds play defense was going full deny while offense was trying to jog or walk to spots. Causing bumps and shoving to occur as Team A is trying to get to a spot and during and dead ball Team B is now beating them to spots and forcing them to take the long way round or not get the spot they expect which they didn't they would just try to walk through to their spot and react badly because it was supposed to be a dead ball.

The rules say every player is entitled to a spot on the floor if they get there first…. If two A players stack in front of the rim very close together or 4 players in yours, and i see a B trying to force his way in i will tell the B player "they were there first and you are not allowed in." firmly. that has always solved it for me.

if it doesn't you need to penalize. if you have commotion fighting for spots before the throw in you need to talk to players and/or penalize. When you separate the players in the stack that may make things easier for you and your crew but you are affecting the game by changing the rules. many stack plays won't work the way they are supposed to when you let a player in. you force the coach to call another play.

I agree.

We however do a lot of 2 man games and if a team wants to prevent a stack then the rules are encouraging them to compete during dead balls. Do you just let this happen and start calling techs and unsportsmanlikes when it happens?

I can tell them to cool it but if one coach says I want to run a stack and one says I want my kids to get to the spot first so they can't basically you are getting live play during dead balls.

Setting up situations where we know more unsportsmanlikes and t's are going to need to be called and making it difficult to report to the table and confer with partners seems like poor game management . . . I've refered this on to our assignor and artibter.

It seems to me there are ways of addressing this without telling a team to stop doing what they're allowed to because the other team can't follow the rules.

Offense starts setting up their stack, if the defense gets there first, they can have it. If the offense then moves their stack two feet to the right and gets their first, they can have it. If the defense horns in and moves the offense from the stack, call the dead ball intentional contact technical foul. It'll stop real fast.

Pantherdreams,

Maybe others have different perspective but i just havnt seen this rise to the level you are describing. if players are trying to get in the stack i would tell them they are not allowed. if they continue to fight…penalize. again, the defender who tries to continually bump and stay in front of the offense during a dead ball---talk to him. if he doesn't stop it you will need to penalize. players will listen to the whistle--or have to sit down.

i would urge you to try talking, then penalizing rather than letting the defense in. the offense is going to run stack plays. they should. under the basket those are scoring plays. many wouldn't/won't work if you let the defense in. when you do that you are changing the rules and favoring the defense. good luck to you.