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ballgame99 Thu Oct 30, 2014 08:28am

Bad Partner
 
Would you strangle this guy after the game or would you just punch him in the face? haha Just a little preseason reminder to not be this guy. (apologies for the horrible announcers)

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/p2ZZKKAcMV0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Raymond Thu Oct 30, 2014 08:54am

I don't know what I would do, but one of our forum members can tell you what he actually did. ;)

JetMetFan Thu Oct 30, 2014 08:54am

I've seen this a bunch of times and I still can't get enough of it!

All I can say is:

*I give the Blue HC credit for not going absolutely bananas.
*I don't even know if I would've bothered talking to my partner on the court. Maybe for a few seconds to find out why his head was up his a** then moved on.
*There would have been NO talk in the locker after the game. I would've gotten dressed, got in my car and called my assignor.


Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 942633)
I don't know what I would do, but one of our forum members can tell you what he actually did. ;)

:D

BryanV21 Thu Oct 30, 2014 09:10am

At that point in the game I wouldn't have said anything. I would inbound the ball and finish the game. Afterwards, like JMF, I wouldn't talk to the guy at all. I would get dressed and leave.

However, seeing that call, there had to be times during that game when the same thing happened. Assuming that, I would have sternly told him to stay in his primary unless I miss something big.

And after the game, again like JMF, I'd call my assignor.

JRutledge Thu Oct 30, 2014 09:18am

People keep bringing up the nightmare for our fellow forum member.

Peace

Kelvin green Thu Oct 30, 2014 09:22am

Really? The new trail is counting and he calls if from new lead? By my first count they way I would have counted in a game I got to four. You could see him trying to justify the call by making a sign that demonstrates when the ball was available but this is nonsense.

It appeared that the new trail sped up his count. It was a lot faster than the one he was doing previously.

I am afraid in this game with two points, and a few seconds, knowing it was my call, my discussions would have been more animated than what I saw...

I had a partner somewhat like this several years ago. I was in a sub varsity game and the Coach of the home team kept coming out on the floor arguing about calls, after being warned a couple of times, I finally whacked him. (This was the at the start of a time out) My partner who taught in a feeder middle school, walks up to me and tells me I can't make that call before I can report it. I tell her that he'd been warned and T stands. She tells me "I am the referee and I am overruling the call" I then tell her that she can't do it by rule and she tells me that she is still doing it". I told her to do whatever the h377 she wants. I

The opposing coach asks me at the end of the time out if I had called a T and what was happening. I told yes I did but that she can explain it and walked back to my position as the Lead I had before the time out. Luckily we had only a couple of minutes left in the game. I never made eye contact with her the rest of the game. After the final buzzer left the floor and her standing out there as fast as I could get off. I never talked with her again and she never did apologize.

Fortunately I believe that was her last season of officiating...

BryanV21 Thu Oct 30, 2014 09:34am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kelvin green (Post 942640)
Really? The new trail is counting and he calls if from new lead? By my first count they way I would have counted in a game I got to four. You could see him trying to justify the call by making a sign that demonstrates when the ball was available but this is nonsense.

It appeared that the new trail sped up his count. It was a lot faster than the one he was doing previously.

I am afraid in this game with two points, and a few seconds, knowing it was my call, my discussions would have been more animated than what I saw...

I had a partner somewhat like this several years ago. I was in a sub varsity game and the Coach of the home team kept coming out on the floor arguing about calls, after being warned a couple of times, I finally whacked him. (This was the at the start of a time out) My partner who taught in a feeder middle school, walks up to me and tells me I can't make that call before I can report it. I tell her that he'd been warned and T stands. She tells me "I am the referee and I am overruling the call" I then tell her that she can't do it by rule and she tells me that she is still doing it". I told her to do whatever the h377 she wants. I

The opposing coach asks me at the end of the time out if I had called a T and what was happening. I told yes I did but that she can explain it and walked back to my position as the Lead I had before the time out. Luckily we had only a couple of minutes left in the game. I never made eye contact with her the rest of the game. After the final buzzer left the floor and her standing out there as fast as I could get off. I never talked with her again and she never did apologize.

Fortunately I believe that was her last season of officiating...

What was her reasoning for overruling the call?

Bad Zebra Thu Oct 30, 2014 09:57am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ballgame99 (Post 942631)
Would you strangle this guy after the game or would you just punch him in the face? haha Just a little preseason reminder to not be this guy. (apologies for the horrible announcers)

There would have been a real stern discussion immediately after he blew his whistle...along the lines of "Exactly WTF do you think you're doing???". Assuming he refused to reverse his ill advised whistle and proceed with the folly of his call, I'd tell him in the locker room that it was a bulls**t move on his part and don't EVER pull a stunt like that again with me (I'd have him scratched as a partner with my assigner regardless).

For the record, I put a stopwatch on the throw in and got to 4.25 as the absolute longest on end of the throw in. That guy is a serious train-wreck.

Welpe Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:43am

This video is our forum's bad penny.

JetMetFan Thu Oct 30, 2014 02:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welpe (Post 942651)
This video is our forum's bad penny.

It is but it's also a great learning moment for all of us.

We're taught so much about how to handle coaches and players but dealing with partners who may do something like this isn't mentioned quite as often. Most if not all of us have worked with that guy. Maybe not someone who does something as rockheaded as this - and something that's caught on camera, no less - but definitely close. Our forum member showed a surprising amount of restraint given the situation. I've been told I have the patience of a saint but I think when Dude came back to me at the 1:19 mark I probably don't even look at him. When he does it again at the 1:42 mark I probably give him a "stop" sign just to avoid the possibility of cursing him out. This is a great example of putting the job at hand above everything else for the sake of the kids, even if stupid gets in the way.

HokiePaul Thu Oct 30, 2014 02:27pm

That's awful. I wish we could tell what the discussion was between officials, but I think I would have:

1) Attempted to figure out what the call was (it looks like the lead did this)
2) Explain to my partner that it was my call, his call was incorrect, and that it needed to be reversed -- Pull in the coaches and explain --"The 5 second count was incorrectly started and as a result there was no violation -- it's Black ball for the throw-in"
3) If my partner refused to reverse, I'd tell him that his call is wrong but I'm not going to cause a scene arguing. I'd tell him that he needs to go administer the throw in himself.

And of course I'd be calling the assignor after the game.

JetMetFan Thu Oct 30, 2014 02:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by HokiePaul (Post 942658)
2) Explain to my partner that it was my call, his call was incorrect, and that it needed to be reversed -- Pull in the coaches and explain --"The 5 second count was incorrectly started and as a result there was no violation -- it's Black ball for the throw-in"

If, somehow, you get the partner on board with this the explanation should be, "Coaches, there was an inadvertent whistle. Black/Blue will have the throw-in and be able to run the end line." Saying the count started incorrectly isn't true. Two people may have been counting but that's a different issue.

zm1283 Thu Oct 30, 2014 03:17pm

I know this video has been posted numerous times on here, but I would absolutely light him up in the locker room after the game. In fact he better hope it is 3-person because the third official might have to pull me off of him.

Raymond Thu Oct 30, 2014 03:19pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by zm1283 (Post 942661)
I know this video has been posted numerous times on here, but I would absolutely light him up in the locker room after the game. In fact he better hope it is 3-person because the third official might have to pull me off of him.

As bad of a temper that I have, the funny thing is I've never lost it on a partner. I find it best just to get dressed and vent to a trusted friend or mentor.

zm1283 Thu Oct 30, 2014 03:22pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 942662)
As bad of a temper that I have, the funny thing is I've never lost it on a partner. I find it best just to get dressed and vent to a trusted friend or mentor.

I get that. I just think he needs to know how the the other official feels. (The one that was sold down the river)

Adam Thu Oct 30, 2014 04:12pm

He'd have one of two responses:
1. Dig in his heels and defend his call "for the good of the game."
2. Shrink and admit he was wrong.

1 is much more likely than 2.

AremRed Thu Oct 30, 2014 05:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 942662)
As bad of a temper that I have, the funny thing is I've never lost it on a partner. I find it best just to get dressed and vent to a trusted friend or mentor.

Screw that, I just bring it here to you guys :D

Mark Padgett Thu Oct 30, 2014 07:37pm

I would have told the coach that my partner just came down from Canada to work the game and he counted the five seconds in metric. :p

Matt Thu Oct 30, 2014 09:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett (Post 942673)
I would have told the coach that my partner just came down from Canada to work the game and he counted the five seconds in metric. :p

Any coach worth his salt knows that metric seconds are longer.

just another ref Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:11pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 942667)
He'd have one of two responses:
1. Dig in his heels and defend his call "for the good of the game."
2. Shrink and admit he was wrong.

1 is much more likely than 2.


It would be interesting to hear his side of the story and catalogue in under the I STILL CAN'T BELIEVE IT file.

1. Why are you looking at the end line at all?

2. Even if you are looking there, why would you have a count going?

3. When do you think the count is supposed to start?

MathReferee Thu Oct 30, 2014 11:06pm

I was under the impression he was going off of the game clock.

Kelvin green Fri Oct 31, 2014 12:03am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BryanV21 (Post 942641)
What was her reasoning for overruling the call?

Because she was the referee

I suspect her real reason was she was trying to gain favor since she worked in a feeder jr high just down the street. That's another ethical issue.

Altor Fri Oct 31, 2014 07:23am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MathReferee (Post 942686)
I was under the impression he was going off of the game clock.

Watch him explain it to the coach. He's telling him that he judged the ball to be at their disposal when it was bouncing under the basket and the two girls were just looking at each other to see who would pick it up.

Raymond Fri Oct 31, 2014 07:58am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altor (Post 942700)
Watch him explain it to the coach. He's telling him that he judged the ball to be at their disposal when it was bouncing under the basket and the two girls were just looking at each other to see who would pick it up.

The actual details of what was discussed are hidden somewhere in the forum. I can't think of a good keyword to do an effective search for it.

Rich Fri Oct 31, 2014 08:10am

I'm thinking there's someone following this thread who could give intimate details of the evening's events.

Adam Fri Oct 31, 2014 08:12am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 942703)
I'm thinking there's someone following this thread who could give intimate details of the evening's events.

Probably, but...

ballgame99 Fri Oct 31, 2014 08:36am

Sorry if this had been posted before, but I've been following this forum for a couple years and I've never seen it. If one of these guys is actually a forum member and could provide insight on this, that would just be amazing. I watch a bunch of officiating videos on youtube, but not too many make me say "What the xxxx" out loud. This one did.

JRutledge Fri Oct 31, 2014 08:39am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ballgame99 (Post 942708)
Sorry if this had been posted before, but I've been following this forum for a couple years and I've never seen it. If one of these guys is actually a forum member and could provide insight on this, that would just be amazing. I watch a bunch of officiating videos on youtube, but not too many make me say "What the xxxx" out loud. This one did.

It has been posted before. It has been posted a couple of times just this year. And yes there is a person on this forum that was on this game. And we have a similar reaction every single time we see this posted. No harm on your part. ;)

Peace

Rob1968 Fri Oct 31, 2014 09:36am

For many of us, here, on the forum, this video was in the back of our mind during the recent thread that discussed when the ball is "at the disposal" of the team.
Early last season, in our area, we received a statement telling us that we needed to start the 5-second count when the ball was "at the disposal" of the probable thrower-in. And we were told not to wait until he/she had the ball in hand, out-of-bounds.
I just couldn't do it - with such disregard for the realities involved, such as in this video, when the 2 players took a short moment to decide which would be the thrower.
I did have a few partners who started the count extremely quickly/early, in my estimation, and I just had to bear with it.
Now, to the actions of the new Lead, in the video . . . I'm really able to be calm, on the floor, but this would have been a supreme test of my self-control, at the moment, and in the lockerroom!!!
I've never blocked a partner, but this guy would've been the first!

OKREF Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:27am

I've never seen this. I really believe I would go to the guy and tell him he has no business calling this, it isn't his responsibility to call this. I would then call both coaches together and tell them we have an inadvertent whistle and continue from there. I would then call my supervisor immediately after the game. There is absolutely no reason for the trail to get involved with this play.

just another ref Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:53am

Forget for a moment about how right or wrong the call may have been. What would it take to make you get involved in the 5 second call from any position other than trail?

I think my partner would have to hit his head and be unconscious first.

So what do you do first then, call 5 seconds or call timeout and seek medical attention for him?

Depends on who the partner is, I guess. :D

Rich Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:58am

Quote:

Originally Posted by OKREF (Post 942721)
I've never seen this. I really believe I would go to the guy and tell him he has no business calling this, it isn't his responsibility to call this. I would then call both coaches together and tell them we have an inadvertent whistle and continue from there. I would then call my supervisor immediately after the game. There is absolutely no reason for the trail to get involved with this play.

It's easy to say that you would do that when watching a video. But when you're the person having the bus driven over you and then having it backed up and driven over you a second time, well...

Yes, I'm the new trail. I could easily have deleted this thread -- I have the power, you know -- but what purpose would it serve? Besides, every time someone accuses me of being a red ass or a hothead, I can just point to this video to prove that I have restraint even I didn't know that I have.

OKREF Fri Oct 31, 2014 11:03am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 942726)
It's easy to say that you would do that when watching a video. But when you're the person having the bus driven over you and then having it backed up and driven over you a second time, well...

Yes, I'm the new trail. I could easily have deleted this thread -- I have the power, you know -- but what purpose would it serve? Besides, every time someone accuses me of being a red ass or a hothead, I can just point to this video to prove that I have restraint even I didn't know that I have.


You're right, it is hard to say what someone would do in a certain situation without actually being in it. I was in no way saying you were at fault, or what you did was wrong. Please don't read my post wrong, my whole point was why is the new lead even counting. I actually think you showed incredible restraint, I probably would have lost my mind!

HokiePaul Fri Oct 31, 2014 11:06am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetMetFan (Post 942659)
If, somehow, you get the partner on board with this the explanation should be, "Coaches, there was an inadvertent whistle. Black/Blue will have the throw-in and be able to run the end line." Saying the count started incorrectly isn't true. Two people may have been counting but that's a different issue.

Interesting point. I guess I was thinking of it more like "bringing information to my partner" and my partner changes the call based on this information rather than an inadvertant whistle (e.g. Parter, I'm 100% certain that the ball was not available to the thrower when you started your count -- I think this needs to be changed to Black/Blue ball).

But you're right. There should have not been a whistle, so it was in fact inadvertant. That said, I think the coaches are going to want more of an explaination and I think the best approach would be "the 5 second count was started incorrectly, and as a result, we have an inadvertant whistle ..."

Of course this is all assuming the partner goes with this, and if he doesn't trust you to make your own 5 second call, I doubt he's going to trust you when you say the call needs to be changed.

rockyroad Fri Oct 31, 2014 11:15am

Quote:

Originally Posted by OKREF (Post 942721)
I've never seen this. I really believe I would go to the guy and tell him he has no business calling this, it isn't his responsibility to call this. I would then call both coaches together and tell them we have an inadvertent whistle and continue from there. I would then call my supervisor immediately after the game. There is absolutely no reason for the trail to get involved with this play.

Watch the video again...the new T did go to the partner and try to talk him out of it. Didn't work. And the calling official had already gone to the coach and told him what was being called - so too late to go with the inadvertent whistle explanation. Besides, does it look like the calling official is going to let the new T do anything about this? At that point there was really nothing the new T could do other than put the ball in play...it became a get in, get done, get out type of game for the last few seconds.

APG Fri Oct 31, 2014 11:25am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 942701)
The actual details of what was discussed are hidden somewhere in the forum. I can't think of a good keyword to do an effective search for it.

Here is this same play discussed 3 years ago:

http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...er-called.html

SE Minnestoa Re Fri Oct 31, 2014 12:29pm

This is why I like a regular partner. We have an understanding of whose responsibility it is when situations arise and we don't have clusters like this happen.

BryanV21 Fri Oct 31, 2014 12:35pm

I'd like to know what the assignor thought after seeing this.

APG Fri Oct 31, 2014 12:41pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BryanV21 (Post 942739)
I'd like to know what the assignor thought after seeing this.

This is from the thread 3 years ago when this clip was discussed. You can read the entire thread here:

http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...er-called.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 808102)
It's been a busy couple of days as far as Christmas preparations and the like go, so I've mostly been following this thread on the phone while out and about. My single post thus far was while sitting at the Wisconsin / Mississippi Valley State game yesterday afternoon. I'll try to summarize my thoughts with some quick bulletpoints:

-- Yes, I was the "new trail."

-- Yes, I had a bus driven over me then had it stop, reverse, and back over me again.

-- garef314: My count in neither throw-in was *slow*. I timed the first throw-in (the one after the timeout) with a stopwatch and it's 3.5 seconds from handing her the ball until she released the throw-in. If you watch the video again, I'm between 3 and 4 on my count when the ball was released. Exactly how is that slow?

-- I was hyper-aware of the situation and remained so during the entire play until I got hit by the bus. The ball went through the basket with 8 seconds remaining in the game. But as we all know the five second count doesn't begin until the ball is at the disposal of the thrower-in. I was aware that the new offense might try to delay here, but I'm not going to change how I administer the count just because the home team had used up all their timeouts and because there were only 8 seconds left in the game. I started counting at the exact same place I would've at any other point in the game.

-- I started the count when the clock was between 5 and 6 seconds left in the game. Yes, I had an eye on the ball and thrower-in and another on the clock. I would've had a violation, likely, with less than a second left in the game had it gotten that far. The bus arrived before that.

-- tomegun: I was angry, angrier than I've ever been on a court before or since. And yet, watching the video, I feel I'm about as composed as I could've possibly been, given the circumstances. I used to gesture with my hands and arms when talking, but I've really worked on not doing that and I'm happy that my hands, for the most part, stay by my sides.

-- I moved to a new town in 2008 and this game was in December of 2009 -- I drove separately. After the game, I went in the locker room, changed clothes quickly without showering, and left without saying a word. I was as close to the edge as I've ever been before or since.

-- My partner was not the senior official. Yes, he's older by about 8-10 years, but I was 40 at the time in my 23rd season of working high school basketball and at least 18 years since I started regularly working varsity games. Who the R was is irrelevant, really -- we always take turns with the duties and we decide at the school who the R will be on a given night.

I spent a lot of time trying to figure out how I could've handled that situation better. I've spent a lot of time thinking about that situation when I'm the senior guy working with a relatively new person. Even though I didn't fit that description, I never want to be someone who steps on a partner like this for *any* reason.

The aftermath is that the winning coach (the home team did not hit their last shot) was more appalled at our disagreement than the call (which, knowing the typical rural girls' coach -- he had no clue that the new lead couldn't make this call). He contacted the commissioner himself and the commissioner called me a few days later. I explained to the commissioner exactly what had happened and he, too, was more concerned about the appearance of us disagreeing on the court than with what that official did, although he knew enough that he couldn't believe that the lead would make such a call. I still work for that assignor -- but only 1-2 dates a year (my choice -- he only has one school less than an hour from my house).

I deleted the original thread because one poster decided to come onto the thread and use it as an excuse to blast me, for whatever reason. BTW, I never said this was a terribly well-officiated game. It was a sloppy, foul-ridden game with the score in the low 30s. I think it's hard for any crew to look good in a game like this.

I really don't want to relive this over and over every couple of seasons, but if anyone has any questions, go ahead. Or PM me. I refuse to deal with personalities. On the other hand, film don't lie.


JRutledge Fri Oct 31, 2014 12:59pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SE Minnestoa Re (Post 942738)
This is why I like a regular partner. We have an understanding of whose responsibility it is when situations arise and we don't have clusters like this happen.


Having a regular partner does not eliminate these problems or create them. I have worked in both situations and have seen problems in both situations. For one having a regular partner you often will not go against that partner when needed. Having different partners that are hired by a person that put you together for a reason, the assignor might know who is the stronger official and puts you there accordingly.

This situation was more about the official over stepping his responsibility and not willing to come off of the mess he made. Heck the fact he made the call and went to the table is telling that he knows he was ultimately in the wrong if he had to do that much explaining. If he made the call and was confident in his decision, he would have just made the call and walked away. He looked disheveled in how he was acting.

Peace

OKREF Fri Oct 31, 2014 01:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 942741)
Having a regular partner does not eliminate these problems or create them. I have worked in both situations and have seen problems in both situations. For one having a regular partner you often will not go against that partner when needed. Having different partners that are hired by a person that put you together for a reason, the assignor might know who is the stronger official and puts you there accordingly.

This situation was more about the official over stepping his responsibility and not willing to come off of the mess he made. Heck the fact he made the call and went to the table is telling that he knows he was ultimately in the wrong if he had to do that much explaining. If he made the call and was confident in his decision, he would have just made the call and walked away. He looked disheveled in how he was acting.

Peace

I've worked with the same partner for 10 years. This would never happen in one of our games. Simply put, we both know that this doesn't belong to the new lead in any way.

JRutledge Fri Oct 31, 2014 01:40pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by OKREF (Post 942745)
I've worked with the same partner for 10 years. This would never happen in one of our games. Simply put, we both know that this doesn't belong to the new lead in any way.

I used to work with the same partner or partners for the first 3 to 4 years of my career. I went another 8 years or so not working with a partner and literally working with a different person just about every single game (when I moved to the Chicago area). Then I went back to working a lot of games with two guys that helped mentor me for about 5 years. Then I have gone back to not having a partner and this or anything like this has never happened to me in any basketball game.

This to me was about the individual, not what the rest of us are used to.

Peace

Raymond Fri Oct 31, 2014 01:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by OKREF (Post 942745)
I've worked with the same partner for 10 years. This would never happen in one of our games. Simply put, we both know that this doesn't belong to the new lead in any way.

Working with the same partner doesn't eliminate such occurrences. This is simply a case of an official f'ing up and not backing down in the aftermath.

I like working with multiple partners b/c it gives me different perspectives. If I were to work with the same partner all the time I feel like we would get too comfortable with bad habits. Working with new partners, I'm more likely to have someone ask, "hey, why are you doing that?"

Bad Zebra Fri Oct 31, 2014 01:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 942726)
Yes, I'm the new trail. I could easily have deleted this thread ...

A tip of the cap to you for allowing this to be re-hashed over and over...also for not strangling "that guy" after the game.

It's actually a great teaching tool.

Freddy Fri Oct 31, 2014 02:31pm

Your Attitude Made My Day Here
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 942747)
Working with new partners, I'm more likely to have someone ask, "hey, why are you doing that?"

For you to be open to that kind of peer critique is laudable. In fact, for a whole association or assigning pool to be nurtured to have that kinda attitude would really be a benefit. Self-inviting peer critique is an asset towards sure improvement.

Raymond Fri Oct 31, 2014 02:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bad Zebra (Post 942748)
...

It's actually a great teaching tool.

Years ago I learned my lesson, though my gaffe was not nearly as bad as the OP.

BV, 3-man crew. To set the Crew Chief's mood, earlier in the game our other partner had granted a time-out to the defense during a live ball.

2nd or 3rd quarter. Made free throw, followed by a press, including on-ball pressure on the throw-in. I was the C and had set up slightly below free throw line extended. CC was new Trail with throw-in responsibilities.

A1 runs end line to my half of the court so that he is easily in my line of site. B1 reaches up and touches the ball. I blow my whistle (from the C) to call a T for the throw-in infraction. Trail makes a beeline towards me with fire in his eyes. He does take the time to ask me what my whistle is for, but after my answer and in no uncertain terms he informs me that A1 had reached the ball over the end line. He calls the Lead over and tells us that we are going with an inadvertent whistle, and that we better not f**k his game up (remembering the earlier time-out gaffe).

I had no problem with his demeanor during the event other than the "my game" reference. "This game" would have been more appropriate.

Raymond Fri Oct 31, 2014 02:52pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 942751)
For you to be open to that kind of peer critique is laudable. In fact, for a whole association or assigning pool to be nurtured to have that kinda attitude would really be a benefit. Self-inviting peer critique is an asset towards sure improvement.

I always welcome constructive and productive criticism. I especially crave it from supervisors. There was a five year period before I got picked up in D3 ball that I worked in a JuCo where my closest games were at least a 2 1/2 hour drive. The supervisor was a multiple D1 Final Four official who could nit-pick your game to pieces. There was many a lonely ride home where I would ask myself if I was really good enough to be pursuing this avocation above the HS level.

I finally reconciled myself that he wouldn't bother to spend all that time breaking my game down unless he felt 1) that I could handle it; and 2) that he saw potential me, and felt I was worth the effort.

Now when I get the chance to mentor or observe younger officials I tell them I can either pat you on the back and say "great job", or I can point out those little things you need to work on that will help you move up whatever ladder you're trying to climb.

Freddy Fri Oct 31, 2014 03:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 942753)
I always welcome constructive and productive criticism.

One crew I work with is accustomed to "Goin' 'Round the Horn" for post-game every game. Official A, then B, then C each offers something -- anything -- a call each made that each might like to either "have back" or review on video. Discussion of each by the group. Then another round where each suggests something he saw of each of the other two that might merit reconsideration or special review on the video. Healthy interchange and enabling introspection always results. And thereby it seems track of improvement is laid. I'm confident this is nothing new to most of you...

Contra . . . Post season partner last year, as I tried to enact the same kinda post-game analysis: "No, we don't do that kinda stuff with our crew. We figure, if a partner called it, he wouldn't have called it if it wasn't correct." Poor guy. Lack of self- and peer-critique showed.

Lack of a good post-game seems closer to the latter than the former.

Raymond Fri Oct 31, 2014 04:06pm

Freddy,

APG and I attended a camp run by a very successful NBA official this past off-season. He swears by peer criticism. The camp includes group breakdown of camp games. He would get highly irritated when we would be afraid to candidly assess our fellow officials on tape.

AremRed Fri Oct 31, 2014 05:42pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 942756)
Freddy,

APG and I attended a camp run by a very successful NBA official this past off-season. He swears by peer criticism. The camp includes group breakdown of camp games. He would get highly irritated when we would be afraid to candidly assess our fellow officials on tape.

I really like peer criticism, but it depends on the area and level. I've noticed NBA and NCAA-W officials are quick to offer criticism but among mens college officials where I live the unspoken rule is you don't talk plays. I had to learn that the hard way.

JRutledge Sat Nov 01, 2014 01:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 942763)
I really like peer criticism, but it depends on the area and level. I've noticed NBA and NCAA-W officials are quick to offer criticism but among mens college officials where I live the unspoken rule is you don't talk plays. I had to learn that the hard way.

You need to get out more. :rolleyes:

Peace

BillyMac Sat Nov 01, 2014 01:28pm

I'm Not Judging, But ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 942763)
.. where I live the unspoken rule is you don't talk plays.

It was like that thirty years ago, here in my little corner of Connecticut. Back then, discussions between games involving subvarsity, and varsity, officials; or halftime, or postgame, discussions involving partners, never broached topics regarding whether a "call" was good, or bad. It was an "unspoken" rule. Everything else was up for discussion, but never whether a specific call (foul/no foul, travel/no travel, etc.) was right, or wrong.

We have evolved over the last thirty years. It is now acceptable to ask, delicately, "Hey? What did you see on (such and such) play?", and to then discuss the interpretation of the rule on the play, even involving plays like block/charge decisions, such discussions being absolutely verboten thirty short years ago.

Kansas Ref Sun Nov 02, 2014 09:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 942799)
It was like that thirty years ago, here in my little corner of Connecticut. Back then, discussions between games involving subvarsity, and varsity, officials; or halftime, or postgame, discussions involving partners, never broached topics regarding whether a "call" was good, or bad. It was an "unspoken" rule. Everything else was up for discussion, but never whether a specific call (foul/no foul, travel/no travel, etc.) was right, or wrong.

We have evolved over the last thirty years. It is now acceptable to ask, delicately, "Hey? What did you see on (such and such) play?", and to then discuss the interpretation of the rule on the play, even involving plays like block/charge decisions, such discussions being absolutely verboten thirty short years ago.

@ verboten! Lol!
Yet I must confess that I did overturn a crew member's foul call who called in my PCA, and his call was pure wrong then we had a rather heated side discussion at any rate, we can never allow hubris to such an extreme extent as was shown in that vid.

BillyMac Sun Nov 02, 2014 11:58pm

Gesundheit ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref (Post 942857)
@ verboten! Lol!

One of my Irish Dad's favorite expressions. He learned this from German prisoners of war as an Army Staff Sergeant fighting his way along the Apennines in Italy during WWII.


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