Back court violation question
 

Here's a scenario:

1. A player from team A shoots the ball in front court, another player from team A secures the offensive board
2. Same player from team A attempts to dribble, a player from team B deflects/pokes the ball away towards back court
3. Now player from team A who lost the ball hustles back and deflects it away(before player from team B can gain control of the ball, still in front court) and the ball rolls into back court
4. Another player from team A picks up the ball in back court

Is this a back court violation?

Ask yourself. Did team A still have team control in their front court when the A player deflected it into the back court. Then there is your answer.

Backcourt decision criterea:

1. Is there team control inbounds?
2. Did the ball gain frontcourt status?
3. Was team A the last to touch the ball BEFORE it returned to the backcourt?
4. Was team A the first to touch the ball AFTER it returned to the backcourt?

If you answer yes to all 4 questions, it is a violation. Otherwise, no violation.

(Edited to say "A" in #4)

No it was loose ball, and the player from team A just poked it back to back court where his teammate picked it up

Definitions ...
 

4-12: Team control continues until:
a. The ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal.
b. An opponent secures control.
c. The ball becomes dead.
While the ball remains live a loose ball always remains in control of
the team whose player last had control, unless it is a try or tap for goal.

This only means there was no player control at the time, but team control still remained for Team A, and that's what's important for the backcourt rule.

Thanks for clarifying :)

"LOOSE BALL" only has a rules based definition when millionaires are on the court. Were you playing under NBA rules?

Or, people who want to officiate millionaires! ;)

What if we were? Does the NBA rule on back court violation differ from FIBA?

Under NBA rules, team control ends on a defensive deflection. As such, your play would not be a backcourt violation under NBA rules.

just to clarify something similar

So if Team A after a made shot throws the ball to their front court. ball is deflected with no team control into Team A's backcourt- ball touches a Team A player in frontcourt but no control. Team A is the first to touch in the backcourt.

No violation here? Am I reading the previous posts correctly? There is no backcourt violation until team control has been established inbounds?
But in this situation is the 10 second rule in effect? So somehow no team control inbounds, ball goes back and forth between front and backcourt and 10 seconds pass. Does team control have to be established in the frontcourt for the 10 second count to stop? So team A could have both feet in the front court, touches the ball, but no control and it goes to the backcourt. Would I continue my 10 second count?

Ok let me add on to this. I'm still a bit confused about something(s). Team A throws the ball into their front-court. A2 touches and then A3 touches in the backcourt. No control in FC but this is a violation because of the location of A2 in the FC.

But there is no team control after a shot. So A1 shoots, misses and A2 taps the ball into the backcourt. A3 gets the ball. No violation here because no team control.

yeah I need to go to sleep, making this too confusing.

You got it.

The 10 second count (for NFHS games) doesn't even start until there is team control....so no count at any point in the situation above.

If you are saying this a is a throwin, then there is no violation.

However, if you're saying that A has the ball in their backcourt, in team control, then throws the ball into their frontcourt where A2 touches it such that it goes back to the backcourt where A3 touches it, that is a violation. Ball inbounds, team control, frontcourt ball status, A2 last to touch before going to backcourt, A3 first to touch after going into the backcourt.

Remember that once TEAM control starts, it continues until one of a few instances and the backcourt rule is about team control inbounds. It doesn't depend on player control existing at any of the locations.

Correct.

The Black List ...
 

During a throwin, even under a team’s own basket, if the throwin is deflected, tipped, or batted by an offensive player in the frontcourt to an offensive player in the backcourt; or after a missed field goal attempt, or a missed foul shot attempt, if the ball is deflected, tipped, or batted by an offensive player in the frontcourt to an offensive player in the backcourt; these are not a backcourt violations.

Worth Repeating ...
 

Good point Camron Rust. The ten second count starts with player control (inbounds), not necessarily with a player "touch" (although they often happen at the same time).

And even in games where the 10-second count starts on the touch, it stops when the ball reaches the FC. So in mutant's "ping pong" game play, the 10-second count would start-and-stop-and-start-and-stop

All right, thanks

For 10 second count, team-control inbounds is required.
On a throwin, team control is required before a backcourt violation can be called.
If control is established inbounds by Team A and Team A loses control of the ball, and the ball moves from the BC to the FC then back to the BC(no control) it is a violation if a Team A player touches it in the FC and then in the BC.

Is this one true- It would not be be a violation if Team A inbounds, control established, A1 makes a pass that deflects off B1 in the (A's) frontcourt, so two feet and ball in frontcourt but it bounces back into the backcourt. Team A can still get the ball without it being a violation. Is the 10 second count continuing in this scenario? Sorry- just cancel that. So Bob J. in this one the 10 second count would stop once it reaches FC, but then would continue again when it goes to the BC?

Careful in your terminology. I don't think you meant that team A "loses control" but that a player on team a loses control (player control lost, but not team control lost).

If so, that would be a violation.

Correct. Team B was the last to touch the ball before it returned to the backcourt.

Also, don't get confused with "two feet and the ball". That criteria is ONLY used for a dribbler who is moving across the division line. It not relevant at any other time.

When it doesn't involve a dribbler, the ball is in the frontcourt if it touches the floor in the frontcourt or a player in the frontcourt. A player who is not dribbling is in the frontcourt if the player is touching frontcourt and is not touching backcourt or is airborne having jumped from such a position. And it doesn't matter how many feet are doing the touching or even if it is feet at all...they could laying down with their feet in the air. (Same principle as OOB vs inbounds).

Not Bob, but, 10 second count starts immediately upon ball touching court in BC, no touch by player required.
9-8-1

(Credit to, and with kind remembrance of Jurassic Ref)

sorry I don't understand that last post.

Just to be clear, is this true?

For a 10 second count to begin, off a rebound or an inbounds play, there must first be team control inbounds. A touch without control will not start the 10 second count.

NFHS...Correct.

As Camron said, you need to watch your terminology. Often rules confusion amongst officials occurs b/c of such misstatements. When talking about possession there is Team Control and Player Control, plus we can add in At Disposal for throw-ins and free throws. If you stick to those terms it makes the rules clearer.

IN NCAA, the count starts on a touch on an inbounds play (assuming the touch is in the BC).

On the "Ping-Pong" play:

FED: When the ball reaches the FC, the count is stopped. As soon as the ball reaches the BC, the count RESTARTS (not continues) -- even in the ball isn't touched.

NCAAW: When the ball reaches the FC, the count is stopped. The count restarts when the ball is touched in the BC (just having the ball touch the floor in the BC does NOT restart the count)