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-   -   Last second pass/shot (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/98551-last-second-pass-shot.html)

just another ref Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:48am

Last second pass/shot
 
On the subject of removing judgment from a call: We had a study guide question (which also turned out to be on my test) that I had not seen before.
Timeout is called with team B ahead by 2 with 11.1 seconds on the clock. Team A has a throw-in under Team B's basket. Ball is inbounded to A1, who attempts to dribble up against pressure. He is still in backcourt, unable to break the press, when he realizes the clock is down to 2 seconds. He heaves the ball toward the basket. The buzzer sounds while the ball is in the air then it goes into the basket. Ruling: Score 3 points for Team A. Game over.

True or False? Well, the answer is true. The point of the question (obviously after I thought about it) was that there is no 10 second violation because the release of the try ends team control.

When the 3 point line first came to NFHS, as I recall, when an official judged a thrown ball to be a pass, only 2 points were scored if it went into the basket, no matter where it was thrown from. This was later changed that a thrown ball from outside the arc counts 3, regardless of intent.

BUT, 5.1.1 Sit. B tells us that "When deemed a pass and not a try, the ball becomes dead immediately when the horn sounds."

So this tells us that the above mentioned change doesn't mean that any thrown ball that goes in is considered a try, merely tells us how to score an errant pass that does go in.

So, take the test question above and add this: A2 comes open under the basket and waves frantically for the ball. A1 spot's him and yells "Here you go, A2. Be a hero!" and releases a baseball style pass in his direction. Buzzer sounds while ball is in the air, and the ball goes through the basket.

What is your ruling?

bob jenkins Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:52am

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 942296)
So, take the test question above and add this: A2 comes open under the basket and waves frantically for the ball. A1 spot's him and yells "Here you go, A2. Be a hero!" and releases a baseball style pass in his direction. Buzzer sounds while ball is in the air, and the ball goes through the basket.

What is your ruling?

Taking that word literally as reflecting the official's judgment, B's ball to inbound with 1.1 seconds left from the spot of the pass.

just another ref Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:54am

Well done, Bob. But it might have been more interesting if someone less wise than you had answered first. :)

I think it's fair to say this is a call that would bring down the house.

Rob1968 Thu Oct 23, 2014 11:41am

Not so random thoughts:

Until the ball goes in, we may/may not consider it a pass/shot. That the 10-second count expires, before the ball obtains frontcourt status, and before it goes through the basket, becomes the crux of a 10-second call/no-call, count it/don't count it, in the situation being discussed.

The characterization of the delivery of the ball, as a "heave" brings to mind the often seen last second "heave" that is followed by some contact, and the offensive player begging for a call, "on the shot", to which the covering official replies, "Nope," because the "heave" was so sloppy as to not be judged a shot. (And, what if, in such a situation, while the official shakes his head "No," that sloppy delivery then goes in?)

We have, here, and in other discussions, stated that when the coach or other bench personnel yell, "Foul him!" we are to judge the action, and not automatically consider the subsequent contact as intentional. So, the second offered scenario may/may not be an automatic judgement that the "heave/pass to A2" is a pass, thus negating counting the basket, if the ball goes through.

Has anyone here ever called a 10-second count, when the ball was in the air, released from backcourt, as it travelled forward, over the frontcourt, when the 10-second limit was reached?

bob jenkins Thu Oct 23, 2014 12:01pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob1968 (Post 942307)
The characterization of the delivery of the ball, as a "heave" brings to mind the often seen last second "heave" that is followed by some contact, and the offensive player begging for a call, "on the shot", to which the covering official replies, "Nope," because the "heave" was so sloppy as to not be judged a shot.

If that's what the official is judging, then waive off the ball when the horn sounds.

Most of the time, though, it is a shot (albeit a sloppy heave). It's just that the contact is then judged to be incidental (at least until someone makes this an "absolute") -- not that the heave is judged to be not a shot.

johnny d Thu Oct 23, 2014 03:59pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob1968 (Post 942307)
Has anyone here ever called a 10-second count, when the ball was in the air, released from backcourt, as it travelled forward, over the frontcourt, when the 10-second limit was reached?


Yes. Since NCAA-M started using the shot clock to determine 10 second violations, I have called and seen this called multiple times.

JugglingReferee Thu Oct 23, 2014 05:10pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob1968 (Post 942307)
Has anyone here ever called a 10-second count, when the ball was in the air, released from backcourt, as it travelled forward, over the frontcourt, when the 10-second limit was reached?

Yes.

Obvious pass to deep corner.

Coach didn't like it at all. He went straight to rules guy after the game. Rules guy supported my call immediately.


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