Correctable Error
 

A1 is fouled with five seconds remaining in the second quarter. Team A is awarded a throw-in and A1 passes the ball inbounds to A2, the horn sounds ending the quarter. As officials enter the court from the half-time intermission, the scorer informs the Referee that A1 should have been awarded one-and-one bonus situation.

Ruling: Shoot 1+1 to start Q3 no players on line and throw in with AP at division line.

Modification: If A1 passes to A2 and A2 makes a 3 before the half ends, does the basket still count? Would A1 still get the 1+1 to correct the error?

Whether or not A2's 3-pointer counts is independent of the correctable error situation. The basket counts, and assuming the ball did not again become live prior to the end of the half, the error would still be correctable and A1 would get his 1+1 coming back from the half.

Foul (dead ball) ------> Team A throw-in (live ball) ------> A2 scores (first dead ball after the clock has been properly started) ------> Period ends without ball becoming live again

Now if Team B had the ball at its disposal for a throw-in following A2's three-pointer, then the first dead ball after the clock has been properly started has passed, and the error is no longer correctable.

this play...
 

... was recently discussed on another forum.

The discussion was about which basket the free throws would be shot at.

At the basket team A was shooting at in the first half, as that is the basket he should have shot at when the error occurred. Right?

My Two Cents ...
 

The second period ended. We're now in the third period. Shoot in the basket the team is supposed to shoot at in the second half. Right?

The error was made in the second quarter. We are going back to correct that error. The teams switch baskets and now the third period will start with the AP arrow. Right?

As was posted in the other forum...

Remove the full intermission element of things. If the error had been discovered one minute after the horn sounded at the end of the first half where would the shots take place?

not an issue
 

R99, this probably won't be an issue because before we shoot the free throws we should have explained to both coaches that we have a correctable error situation and A1 will shoot the merited free throws. In the absence of a specific ruling, we just tell them what basket we are going to shoot at and I'm sure the coaches will be fine with that.

It seems to me, a period is not completed until all activities that are part of that period are finished. Thus, the free throws, as merited in the 1st half, would be shot at the basket assigned to the offended team in that 1st half.

Reference: 5-6-EXCEPTIONS: 3. The quarter or extra period ends when the free throw(s) and all related activity have been completed. No penalty or part of a penalty carries over from one quarter or extra period to the next, except when a correctable error, as in 2-10, is rectified.

My rationale: Because the change of goals is part of the 2nd half, it must not take place until the 1st half is complete, which includes the free throw attempts in question, at the goal assigned to the offended team in the 1st half. 2-10-6. . . If an error is corrected, play shall be resumed from the point of interruption to rectifiy the error, . . .
JMHO

I agree. Pick one and go with it. I'd probably go to the first half basket, but if you're going back and shooting FTs from the first half, no one is really going to question you about which basket you shoot at. They might question whether it's too late to correct, but after that's resolved, their heads will be spinning and they won't worry about which basket.

Fun With Rules ...
 

The error occurred in the second period, but the correction will take place in the third period. Right?

What if a foul occurs, after the halftime intermission, during the correction? What if that team had six fouls in the first half, would the foul count toward the first half, thus seven, and now we're shooting one and one?

(Note: I can't think of a situation where we would have a common foul, just intentionals, and technicals, but it's still good question. Right?)

Heck? Just shoot at one of the side baskets. Right?

What difference does it make which end you shoot at. Coach we have a correctable, should have shot a 1-1. Put the shooter on the floor, then start the period with an AP. I would probably go with the way they are going in the second half. It could be confusing if you shoot the free throws at one end then turn around at go the other way.

BillyMac, trying to see if I have this right. By your reasoning, if this scenario happened with :05 left in the 4th quarter with the score tied, and the error was discovered during the intermission before overtime, you would start the extension of the 4th quarter with the free throws rather than part of the regular 4th quarter (which could determine if the extension was even needed), right?
Hint: 2.10.1B

Not the same....and I didn't even look up your hint.

Right ???
 

Yes. I believe that I would (if by extension of the 4th quarter you mean overtime). But I wouldn't bet my house on this being the correct interpretation. I look forward to comments from esteemed Forum members.

We have started to discuss two different, but yet the same, plays in this thread.

1) The rule with regard to OT being an extension of the Fourth Quarter and the Second Half applies to the counting of Team Fouls and does not the effect the disposition of CEs.

2) Therefore whether the CE occurred with five seconds left in the: a) Second Quarter/First Half, b) Fourth Quarter/Second Half, or c) any OT period, the FTs are part of the Period in which the CE occurred and in the case of (2a) the FTs are attempted at Team A's Basket in the Second Quarter/First Half. Once the FTS are attempted the next Period can begin.

MTD, Sr.

So, foul right at the buzzer ending the second quarter. Should be the 7th, but is thought to be the 6th.

The third quarter starts, teams go back and forth for a while not scoring, then the ball I tipped out of bounds (first dead ball of the half). table buzzes -- hey, we should have shot FTs at the end of the last quarter.

It's still correctable.

You're shooting them at the first half basket?

;)

Bob:

As weird as it sounds, yes.

MTD, Sr.

It seems that the question you have to ask is "what basket was the team shooting at at the time of the error?" And the answer to that will give you the answer to the question of what basket to shoot the free throw(s) at.

As someone already pointed out, when it comes to the players, coaches, fans, and the vast majority of people, they either don't know or don't care... just shoot 'em.

But when it comes to other refs and especially supervisors/observers, doing it right does matter.

So can anybody say for sure? Seems as though we have highly regarded officials answering differently.

And this why even most officials who are there aren't going to care where you shot the FTs. The answer is difficult enough to find, the focus will be on the itself in any post-game discussions among refs.

Is this the reason for the rule that states that the points for a free throw go to the shooters team, no matter which basket is used (assuming no correction is made of course)

I can honestly say my supervisor, coordinator, or evaluator wouldn't care which end they were shot on. Is it a correctable error and was it corrected. That's all that really matters. Is this situation really a nit that needs to be picked?

Bob:

I thought about the answer I gave you and I believe that by rule we have to attempt the FTs at the Team A's First Half Basket. That said, if I were evaluating the game officials in such a game I would not ding them if they did not attempt the FTs at the First Half Basket. But, I believe that Team B's HC would have a good case to claim that attempting them at Team A's Second Half Basket would be a CE for attempting the FTs at the wrong basket. In the first case the game officials will look silly, and in the second case they could be creating a second CE. I guess this is a question that the NFHS and NCAA "knuckle heads" will have to sort out.

In other words: It is six of one and half dozen of the other.

MTD, Sr.

OKREF:

Read my post just above this one. I agree with your analysis.

MTD, Sr.

Again, IMO, at which basket the FT's are attempted is not such an important issue. My concern is in which quarter are these FT's going to be a part of? If the attempts are going to be recorded as part of the third quarter, this could put the individual and the team at a disadvantage and could affect the outcome of the game. In Ohio, we have a 5 qtr. maximum/day rule. What if A10 plays 3 quarters in the JV game, enters the varsity game just before halftime, and happens to be the player involved in the CE? Assume the coach does not plan to play him in the 3rd quarter but now we are informed of the CE. A10 attempts his merited free throws. If the attempts are recorded as part of the third quarter it would stand to reason that he participated in the quarter and would be charged, through no fault of his own, with his fifth and final quarter. I think it would be wise to have the attempts recorded as part of the second quarter when the error actually occurred. If the officials decide to shoot at the original basket that's fine with me, or if the 3rd quarter already started (Bob's scenario) and the officials say we're going to shoot here- that would be fine as well.

Bob read this.
 

After much thought, I have decided that A1 should attempt his FTs in Team A's Second Half Basket because the CE was discovered during the Second Half.

MTD, Sr.

I couldn't care less about how many quarters someone plays. That has no bearing on any decision I would make during a game.

BillyU2:

I have been an OhioHSAA registered basketball official for 44 years. Do not bother yourself with the number of quarters that a player has played.

The only time we (OhioHSAA officials) are concerned about the number of quarters a player has played is when the Scorer informs us: a) that a player is playing in his 6th quarter or b) a player who has played in 5 quarters has reported to the Scorer to re-enter the game and it will be his 6th quarter of play.

MTD, Sr.

I know it doesn't matter where the free throws are attempted, but there has to be a right answer, and I'd rather know the right answer than to shrug my shoulders if I were ever asked.

Call me OCD. :D

Mark, you missed the point. I said my concern is which quarter will the attempted free throws be a part of. (yes, it could create a concern regarding # of quarters played later) but for right now, which quarter will the free throws be a part of? You and your partners return to the court before intermission is over and the scorer informs you A10 should have received a one and one just before the end of the second quarter. You inform the scorer and the coaches we have a correctable error and that A10 will receive his merited free throws. The scorer asks you- in which quarter do I record the free throws, the 2nd or 3rd? And you say . . .?

BillyU2:

Read what I said above.

MTD, Sr.

Mark, I believe you are referring to Bob's scenario where the 3rd period has started when you are informed but the error is still correctable. Please refer to my scenario where you are informed during intermission. Thanks.

If the CE is discovered during Half Time attempt the FTs at the First Half Basket because the Second Half has not started.

MTD, Sr.

Perfect.

If you're actually concerned about the number of quarters someone plays, which isn't any part of the rules we should be concerned with:rolleyes:

Plus, I would certainly hope that the OHSAA would recognize the situation and NOT issue any penalty for this specific type of participation even if it was recorded in the "6th quarter"

If discovered during the contest it is a team technical. If discovered after the contest there is no penalty.

It is a TF charged to the Team and not the Player. The TF counts towards the Team's total for the Half.

While I am sure that most H.S. games in the U.S. are same gender JV/VAR DHs, here in Ohio we sometimes have same gender FR/JV/VAR THs. As far as I can remember (1965-66 school when I was a FR in H.S.) the OhioHSAA has had a quarters per day rule which allowed a player to play in both games of a JV/VAR DH or all three games of a FR/JV/VAR TH al long as the number of quarters played for all two or all three games did not exceed the OhioHSAA limit for quarters in a day.

I am not going to go into detail with the history of the OhioHSAA rule because it has changed a couple of times over the years but suffice to say the game officials only responsibilities with regard to the rule are to enforce the penalty when the player in question is PLAYING in his/her 6th or more quarter of the day. I should add that once the quarter in which a player has participated for his 5th quarter of the day, has ended, that player is not considered a "disqualified" player for the remainder of the game. "Disqualified" in this context is not the same as the Rules Book definition of disqualified because the OhioHSAA penalty for playing in a 6th quarter in a day is just removal from the game and a TF charged to the player's team.

MTD, Sr.

So, A1 is fouled near the end of Quarter 2, and should shoot 1&1. The free throws are not administered until after halftime. A1 is identified as the correct shooter.
As A1 goes to the line to shoot the 1&1, a) prior to the throw-in to start the 3rd quarter, or b) after the throw-in to start the 3rd quarter, the scorekeeper informs the R that A1 has already played in 6 quarters, and asks whether A1 shooting the 1&1 will constitute participation in a 7th quarter, and thus merit a T, and consequently 2 free throws and a throw-in for team B.

If you're operating in the crazy world where officials are responsible for enforcing participation limits, then I would tell the score keeper to record teh points in the quarter in which they should have been taken.

In my world, I don't care, and I'm not issuing an technical fouls.

yep.

Your state has documented by-laws that mandate a Technical be called in such a situation?

As far as OhioHSAA is concerned:

Situation #1: The CE is discovered prior to the start of the Second Half; this means the CE was discovered in the First Half. The Scorer discovers, BEFORE the ball has been made Live for A1's first FT attempt, that A1 has already participated in six quarters for the day and notifies the Game Officials . There is no Penalty because the infraction was discovered while A1 was not in the game. The Game Officials notify A1's HC of A1's situation and a Team A player who is not currently in the game will attempt A1's FTs.

It should be noted that if the Scorer discovers that A1 is participating in his sixth quarter after the ball has been made Live for his first FT attempt then the penalty for participating in more that five quarters in a day must be enforced. Using the NFHS (and NCAA) protocol for a Disqualified Player that is discovered while participating in the game.

Situation #2: The CE is discovered during the Second Half and before the time limit to correct the CE has expired. We now have multiple possibilities.

a) A1 was participating at the time the CE was discovered. Team A is charged with a TF for A1's illegal participation. A1's replacement attempts A1's FTs. Team B is then awarded two FTs for the Team A's TF and the all for a Throw-in at the Division Line opposite the Table.

b) A1 was NOT participating at the time the CE was discovered. A1's FTs are attempted by one of the five Team A players participating in the game at the time the CE was discovered. There is no penalty charged to Team A because A1 has participated in more that five quarters for the day.

MTD, Sr.

I think everybody is getting their knickers in a twist for no reason.

1) The Game Officials do not keep track of a player's quarters. The Scorer keeps track just like he/she would keep track of a player's PFs and TFs.

2) The Scorer only notifies the Game Officials when a player is actually participating in his/her sixth quarter, and then and only then is the penalty is enforced.

3) If the infraction is discovered while the player is not participating: No harm; no foul.

4) I graduated from H.S. in 1969. Prior to my graduating from H.S. I cannot remember ever participating or watching a game where a player was discovered playing after exceeding the quarters in a day rule.

5) My H.S. HC's oldest son and I did all of his scouting the last two years he coached (1969-70 and 1970-71) and I cannot remember ever watching a game where a player was discovered playing after exceeding the quarters in a day rule.

6) I started officiating basketball in 1971-72 and can honestly say that I have never had this situation occur in any the H.S. games that I have officiated in Ohio and have never had a fellow official who had it happen in one of his/her games. It is a rule that is there and the schools do a very good job of tracking a player's quarters. I am sure that it has no doubt happened but it is a very rare occurrence.

MTD, Sr.

BNR:

Yes. But only if the infraction is discovered while the player is participating. There is not penalty if the infraction is discovered when the player is not participating.

More importantly, why would we (the Game Officials) enforce such a rule if there was no OhioHSAA documentation of such a rule.

MTD, Sr.

This is how it is worded in the current OHSAA Basketball Manual. FWIW, I contacted our OHSAA Director of Basketball Officials last year regarding if the player had to be participating at the time of the violation for the penalty to be enforced and he said "no." Also, there is no indirect assessed to the coach in case anyone is interested.

Quarters Permitted & Penalty for Violation
Any player is not permitted to participate in MORE than FIVE quarters during any one day. Any part of a quarter is considered a full quarter. Any
overtime is considered an extension of the fourth quarter. Players are permitted a total of 110 quarters (high school) or 64 quarters (Junior High)
for the season plus any played in post-season tournament play.
Penalty for Violating Quarters/Day:
If detected DURING a contest: team shall be assessed a technical foul by the official and the player shall be disqualified from
the game. All quarters shall be counted toward his/her maximum allowed for the season.
If detected AFTER a contest: All quarters shall be counted toward his/her maximum allowed for the season. There is no further
penalty or suspension.

We had one last year in a soccer match. OHSAA is much harder on them. The player is sent off (red card) and the team plays short.

But there is no game report filed with the OhioHSAA.

MTD, Sr.

For soccer, there is. According to the officials' manual, it's an ejection: you file the report, the player is suspended for two games, and the team plays short.

I have no clue as to why the soccer penalty is so much harsher than the basketball penalty. Perhaps it's because soccer doesn't have separate concepts for disqualified and ejected.

I have not officiated H.S. soccer in almost ten years, but I think you need to contact Don Muenz, the OhioHSAA's Director of Soccer Officiating because I do not believe that is the penalty when a player plays in more that three semesters in a game.

MTD, Sr.

It's specifically listed as a straight red card offense. They go to great pains to point out a second-caution red is not an "ejection" for the purposes of the ejection procedure. They could have included an extra half with that but did not.

You can check the manual yourself. It's on page 24.

Can I issue a red card for all this soccer talk?

A yellow card may be in order.

Be careful we don't seem to know what the consequences are for any of these things . . .

By all means please do, ;).

MTD, Sr.

Fútbol ???
 

It's not soccer, it's fútbol.