Establish back in bounds... Please Help
 

Hi Guys, a situation came up and I'm a little fuzzy on the whole "must establish himself in bounds before touching a live ball" rule.

- Player A is dribbling up court on left side of court.

- Opponent B approaches (right side of court to him), and tips ball away into the backcourt.

- Opponent B's momentum carries him out of bounds as he continues towards ball.

- Opponent B *clearly* establishes himself back in bounds while pursuing ball.

- Opponent B picks up ball.

Is it legal? (my confusion comes in cause no one else touched the ball)


Thanks in advance.

In your situation, legal. I believe the rule is 4-35

Legal.

And "*clearly* establishes himself back in bounds" means that the player is not touching OOB and is touching or last touched the court inbounds. It also doesn't matter what touches inbounds or how much touches inbounds (1 foot, 2 feet, a butt, a knee, etc.)

Why does everyone keep asking about this? The rule and case play are clear. I don't see the confusion.

From The "List" ...
 

If a player's momentum carries him or her off the court, he or she can be the first player to touch the ball after returning inbounds. That player must not have left the court voluntarily and must immediately return inbounds. That player must have something in and nothing out. It is not necessary to have both feet back inbounds. It is a violation for a player to intentionally leave the court for an unauthorized reason.

I say, "Keep asking!"
 

"Everyone" doesn't. Cf. # of posts of inquirer. Perhaps a non-official utilizing our forum as a source of accurate rules information. Or maybe a new official just learning the rules. And by the repetition this and other rudimentary rules are cemented in our memories, right?
"Repetitio mater studiorum est."
Glad the question was asked!

That is what we say when you ask questions sometimes. :D

But to be fair, this is a common question because it is a common myth. Usually people that are asking assume this is a rule because they have heard others for years suggest it is a rule. Also it is not clear that this person is an official, which you should know is clearly not something non-officials know or know where to look this stuff up.

Peace

Case book play 7.1.1 Situation C is your play almost verbatim. Legal

I will also add that the rules on this in other sports are different, and some (especially non-officials) try to transfer the rules (or guidelines) from one sport to another.

Dude's 1st Post
 

AR -

Why do you care or even respond ??? <edited> We don't know the ID of the poster....the more the merrier and I hope we don't run good people off this forum because of posts like the way you responded.

It's the nature of a discussion forum like this, we're going to get repeated questions. That's ok. I think it's great, even.

For officials who have been studying the rules for years, the questions may come across as basic. Most of us remember, though, that there was a time when we were new to the actual rules and such "basic" questions were still a part of our learning process.

Is this a basic question? Yes, but I know a lot of veteran officials who get it wrong by misapplying the college rule. I've seen this called by the occasional veteran official (sometimes by otherwise very good officials) for a variety of reasons (all wrong, of course.)

I'd rather have people come and inquire than continue operating under misconceptions or struggling to find the reference in the rule book.

How would the college rule be applied in a HS game that would make a ruling wrong where it would have been right in a college game? Isn't the rule and the ruling the same in both? That going OOB due to momentum and returning to touch the ball is legal.

Isn't the college difference you're refering to really about going OOB on purpose, such as to to go a round a screen, and being the first person to touch the ball (i.e., receive a pass) after returning?

Is the college rule different?

I should have worded it slightly different, as "missapplying a misunderstood college rule."

They misunderstand the college rule, and then proceed to apply it at the wrong level. Two wrongs making a worse wrong, IMO.

Is this the rule in question?
NCAA: 9-4
Art. 1. A player who steps out of bounds under his own volition and then becomes the first player to touch the ball after returning to the playing court has committed a violation.

a. A violation has not been committed when a player, who steps out of bounds as permitted by Rule 7-4.6.b, does not receive the pass along the end line from a teammate and is the first to touch the ball after his return to the playing court.

I agree that this rule is different from the HS equivalent (in HS, it's *supposed to be* an immediate violation to run OOB on your own volition).

This rule, though, has nothing to do with the OP, and nothing to do with "establishing" back inbounds.

I can see where it might be part of the confusion for some.

I see this most frequently not by officials wrongly using NCAA rules but by those who are hung up on football principles, i.e., failing to get BOTH feet inbounds.

That and I'd also attribute (especially with fans and players) to the fact that in the NBA, in certain situations, a player can not be the first to touch the ball after going out of bounds and coming back in.

Sorry if I offended you.

It was my first post. I didn't know others had kept asking.

Case book? What's a case book?
 

While most of us who officiate as a profession have multiple books a newer ref or someone who refs a small league may not be aware it exists. At least they're coming here for advice and to learn.

No, my apologies to you. There have been a couple threads on this topic in the past couple months so I was curious what the deal was. :) Are you here as an official or just a curious mind?

Had this same situation in a training game tonight on an inbounds play. Was on sidelines with a new ref watching the game before his when a girl was pushed out of bounds (no foul called). She immediatly came back in and got the inbounds pass. New ref had lots of questions about the whole sequence which is why it's important to go over theses things again and again.

Rec league player. Nobody seemed to know the rule, it was pretty funny. My opinion ended up being right, thanks to you guys, but I didn't know for sure.

Went in doubt, shoot for the ball. Ball don't lie. ;)

Observer
 

The negative responses that are posted on here are the exact reason I never post. Many new refs with valid questions are getting slammed and embarrassed. In our D2 mens meeting this weekend, it was said, dont forget where you came from, thank the one(s) that got you to where you are now and help the new guy/gals.

One relatively negative response, and that response was (correctly, I think) summarily dismissed. And quite frankly, THAT response was really minor compared to anything you'll find on the court, even from some partners who are trying to be helpful.

I had considered simply deleting that response, but decided against it and use it to offer encouragement to the OP.

I was just about to say, I really have always believed the confusion on this rule is because of football OOB and re-establishing rules

My "negative" response was not to slam OP for asking a simple question; I was a new official here a couple years ago, was slammed a little (gently), and would not want to pass that on to anyone. I was simply curious about why this question seems to come up so often (a couple threads on it this year), but my post's tone came off harsher than I intended.

As the mods can attest, I am not in a habit of shaming those who ask questions and welcome any questions you might have in the future KevinP!

Just by way of curiousity. Would you consider a player who side steps or angles away from contact to have gone out voluntarily? Or are you allowing them the quick step on the line/out of bounds to avoid a collision or bump?

Anytime Chair......
 

Chair,

Feel free to start a thread anytime.....it makes our job easier when all players know the rules.

Who's That Guy In The Mirror Looking At Me ???
 

It also makes it easier if all the basketball officials know all the rules.