2014 Unannounced Changes? (e.g. Casebook 4.14.1 Sit. D)

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

bob jenkins wrote
iirc, NFHS had this one way, and NCAA (at least W) had it the other. I'm glad they decided to make them the same, but they changed the wrong one.

Since I retired from college officiating after the 2007-08 season my interest in the college (men's and women's) is to the extent that I buy copies of the rules, casebooks, and CCA manuals, and only skim through them. When did the NCAA Women's make this change?

MTD, Sr.

JetMetFan

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. wrote
Whoever came up with this RULING should be sent back to Basketball Officiating 101. R2-S10-A1c and R4-S14-A1 do NOT apply. The only rule that applies is: R4-S14-A2, which states: "A player is officially disqualified and becomes bench personnel when the coach is notified by an official."

Along with the Note on 2-11-5: The procedure if a player who has committed his/her fifth foul continues to play because the scorer has failed to notify the official is as follows: As soon as the scorer discovers the irregularity, the game horn should be sounded after, or as soon as, the ball is in control of the offending team or is dead. The disqualified player must be removed immediately. Any points which may have been scored while such player was illegally in the game are counted. If other aspects of the error are correctable, the procedure to be followed is included among the duties of the officials.

bob jenkins

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. wrote
Since I retired from college officiating after the 2007-08 season my interest in the college (men's and women's) is to the extent that I buy copies of the rules, casebooks, and CCA manuals, and only skim through them. When did the NCAA Women's make this change?

MTD, Sr.

Oh, about 10 years ago (I don't know that it was a change)

JetMetFan

For those who are interested, this is the (edited) NCAAW case play for the NFHS situation detailed above:

A.R. 65. A5 is fouled during an unsuccessful try for goal. As A5 goes to the free-throw line, A5 is assessed an unsportsmanlike technical foul, which is A5’s fifth and disqualifying foul. The scorer...does not inform the official that A5 has been disqualified until after A5 attempts the free throws.

RULING: Since A5 and A5’s coach were not notified of the disqualification until after A5’s free throws, the result of A5’s free throws shall stand. (Rule 4-12.4, 8-3.2.c, 2-9.4 and 4-27.1.e)

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

bob jenkins wrote
Oh, about 10 years ago (I don't know that it was a change)

Bob:

You mean you don't want to climb in my attic with me and go through 43 years of H.S. and college rules books and casebooks with me. 😀

MTD, Sr.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

JetMetFan wrote
Along with the Note on 2-11-5: The procedure if a player who has committed his/her fifth foul continues to play because the scorer has failed to notify the official is as follows: As soon as the scorer discovers the irregularity, the game horn should be sounded after, or as soon as, the ball is in control of the offending team or is dead. The disqualified player must be removed immediately. Any points which may have been scored while such player was illegally in the game are counted. If other aspects of the error are correctable, the procedure to be followed is included among the duties of the officials.

Are you supporting "my" RULING or supporting the NFHS Casebook RULING? I believe that the Note in NFHS R2-11-A5 further supports "my" RULING. And should be included with NHFS R4-S14-A2.

MTD, Sr.

bob jenkins

JetMetFan wrote
For those who are interested, this is the (edited) NCAAW case play for the NFHS situation detailed above:

A.R. 65. A5 is fouled during an unsuccessful try for goal. As A5 goes to the free-throw line, A5 is assessed an unsportsmanlike technical foul, which is A5’s fifth and disqualifying foul. The scorer...does not inform the official that A5 has been disqualified until after A5 attempts the free throws.

RULING: Since A5 and A5’s coach were not notified of the disqualification until after A5’s free throws, the result of A5’s free throws shall stand. (Rule 4-12.4, 8-3.2.c, 2-9.4 and 4-27.1.e)

Thanks. Apparently I did not recall correctly. 😉

Now that you posted it, I seem to remember (but we've seen how reliable that is) that this case was put in a few years ago -- and I agree with the case.

PG_Ref

APG wrote
Thoughts on this new casebook play?

*4.14.1 SITUATION D:

A1 is fouled by B1 while Team A is in double bonus. In frustration, A1 pushes B1 after the ball becomes dead. A1 is assessed a technical foul. A1 successfully makes both free throws for the personal foul assessed to B1. B3 is ready to attempt the free throw for the technical foul by A1. The official scorer notifies the officials that the technical foul on A1 was his/her fifth.

RULING: Officials notify the Team A coach and A1 of the disqualification and allow a substitute for A1. A correctable error has occurred by allowing the wrong player (A1) to attempt the free throws for the personal foul and has been discovered within the timeframe to correct. The free throws by A1 are cancelled and A1’s substitute shall attempt the free throws for the personal foul against A1 followed by the attempts by Team B for the technical foul. (2-10-1c, 4-14-1)

This ruling has been taken to NFHS for clarification. They are supposedly going to issue a correction along with a few other seemingly contradictions between rule and caseplay. Hopefully they will correct and not confuse further.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

JetMetFan wrote
For those who are interested, this is the (edited) NCAAW case play for the NFHS situation detailed above:

A.R. 65. A5 is fouled during an unsuccessful try for goal. As A5 goes to the free-throw line, A5 is assessed an unsportsmanlike technical foul, which is A5’s fifth and disqualifying foul. The scorer...does not inform the official that A5 has been disqualified until after A5 attempts the free throws.

RULING: Since A5 and A5’s coach were not notified of the disqualification until after A5’s free throws, the result of A5’s free throws shall stand. (Rule 4-12.4, 8-3.2.c, 2-9.4 and 4-27.1.e)

JMF:

I agree with NCAA Women's Ruling but what year is that ruling from?

MTD, Sr.

P.S. Loss last night for you.

APG

Moved posts discussing this casebook play to this thread

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

APG wrote
Moved posts discussing this casebook play to this thread

APG:

To which thread?

MTD, Sr.

JetMetFan

When in doubt, go to the source...or as close as you can get:

Your groups concern is right on. The new Case Book Play 4.14.1 D ruling is not accurate. A commendation to you and the group for reviewing the Case Book play(s) and for caring to share your concern.
The NFHS Editor was informed about the concern earlier this month. IAABO will have a memo out to Interpreters shortly. The memo will include several pre-season items including this Case Book Play.

As per Rules 4.14.2 and 2.11's Note following Article 5 are support for (a) the situation not being a correctable error situation; (b) citing the accurate ruling that the player was a player when he/she attempted the free throws and the points are counted.

For IAABO,

Peter

Peter Webb
IAABO Coordinator of Rules Interpreters & Trainers

JetMetFan

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. wrote
JMF:

I agree with NCAA Women's Ruling but what year is that ruling from?

MTD, Sr.

P.S. Loss last night for you.

MTDS -

All I know is it's in this year's case book 😉 I can't remember when the change took place. And, unfortunately, I don't have an attic 😀

As for the p.s., yeah, well...

APG

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. wrote
APG:

To which thread?

MTD, Sr.

From the NFHS Rulebook/Casebook thread to the "2014 Unannounced Changes."

It appears though that we'll be getting a clarification soon from NFHS on this play

bob jenkins

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. wrote
JMF:

I agree with NCAA Women's Ruling but what year is that ruling from?

MTD, Sr.

P.S. Loss last night for you.

I think it first appears in the 2002 book.

And, here's a NFHS 2000-01 Interp:

SITUATION 4: A1 is fouled by B2 and is awarded two free throws. The foul is B2’s fifth foul. The trail official reports the fifth foul to Team B’s coach. Before a substitute is made, the lead official incorrectly permits A1 to attempt the first free throw. The trail official realizes the error and huddles with the lead official. RULING: The result of the first attempt shall stand. Team B’s head coach shall be notified of B2’s disqualification. Once B2 has been replaced, A1 shall attempt the second free throw. COMMENT: This is an official’s error and not a correctable error situation according to Rule 2-10. (10-6 Pen; 2-8-3; 10-5-1d)

BillyMac

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. wrote
The only rule that applies is: R4-S14-A2, which states: "A player is officially disqualified and becomes bench personnel when the coach is notified by an official."

Nice citation Mark T, DeNucci.

In theory I agree with you, but I've always viewed specific casebook plays as "trumping" anything generic in the rulebook. It appears that the fact that the coach was not notified and that the "five foul player" made some free throws is now considered to be a correctable error.

BktBallRef

Received this from the NCHSAA, who received it from the NFHS today, after I asked about this case play.

Correction for 4-14-1 Situation D: A1 is fouled by B1 while Team A is in double bonus. In frustration, A1 pushes B1 after the ball becomes dead. A1 is assessed a technical foul. A1 successfully makes both free throws for the personal foul assessed to B1. B3 is ready to attempt the free throws for the technical foul by A1. The official scorer notifies the officials that the technical foul on A1 was her/his fifth.
Ruling: Officials notify the Team A coach of the disqualification and allow a substitute for A1. The points made by A1 will stand. B3 is allowed to shoot the free throws for the technical foul and Team B is given the ball at half court to continue the game. 4-14-2; 2-11-5 Note.

We will make this correction on our 2014-15 Interpretations which will be distributed a couple of weeks after the Rules Interpretation session.

Adam

BillyMac wrote
Nice citation Mark T, DeNucci.

In theory I agree with you, but I've always viewed specific casebook plays as "trumping" anything generic in the rulebook. It appears that the fact that the coach was not notified and that the "five foul player" made some free throws is now considered to be a correctable error.

Or, as most of us have assumed, it might just be that someone wrote a case play without reviewing the rules or consulting someone else who had.

Camron Rust

Adam wrote
Or, as most of us have assumed, it might just be that someone wrote a case play without reviewing the rules or consulting someone else who had.

It happens all too often for that to not be the case!

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

BillyMac wrote
Nice citation Mark T, DeNucci.

In theory I agree with you, but I've always viewed specific casebook plays as "trumping" anything generic in the rulebook. It appears that the fact that the coach was not notified and that the "five foul player" made some free throws is now considered to be a correctable error.

But not with the CB Play cannot be defended by rule.

MTD, Sr.

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