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-   -   Slight lapse of focus.... (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/98172-slight-lapse-focus.html)

bainsey Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:47am

Slight lapse of focus....
 
Got this from the Basketball Referee Facebook group. It speaks for itself.

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/8TbIGH_x-Uk?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

HokiePaul Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:57am

saved by the bell ... I wonder how long that would have gone on for if the quarter hadn't expired.

SNIPERBBB Wed Jul 09, 2014 11:17am

What is FIBA's protocol for a wrong basket?

bwburke94 Wed Jul 09, 2014 12:44pm

Reset to ~5.6 seconds, blue ball?

Pantherdreams Wed Jul 09, 2014 01:06pm

16.2.2

If a player accidentally scores a field goal in his team’s basket, the goal counts 2
points and shall be recorded as having been scored by the captain of the opposing
team on the playing court.

BillyMac Wed Jul 09, 2014 04:31pm

Before The Buzzer ???
 
Backcourt violation?

JetMetFan Thu Jul 10, 2014 05:54am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 937526)
Backcourt violation?

From what I can tell the violation coincided with the on-screen clock hitting 0:00. Move along, nothing to see here...

Had this happen in a BV game two seasons ago ('12-13) after a missed FT. B1 got the rebound and - realizing he was wide open - scored into the wrong basket. Happily my partner and I shut it down before things got completely out of hand, i.e., before Team A completed the throw-in.

I even remembered to tell the scorer the goal wasn't credited to anyone on Team A! :D

just another ref Thu Jul 10, 2014 07:02am

If the player in white heaves it toward the wrong basket and the buzzer goes off while the ball is in the air does it count if it goes in?

Raymond Thu Jul 10, 2014 07:09am

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 937549)
If the player in white heaves it toward the wrong basket and the buzzer goes off while the ball is in the air does it count if it goes in?

Rhetorical questions, or quizzing our newbies?

I know you know the answer to this.

HokiePaul Thu Jul 10, 2014 07:33am

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 937549)
If the player in white heaves it toward the wrong basket and the buzzer goes off while the ball is in the air does it count if it goes in?

This scenario was taught in my training several years ago. It stood out as one of the few scenarios that I was completely unaware of as a player. But it makes sense -- not a try for goal, so treat it like a pass; ball is dead -- no basket. Same thing if the player driving for a layup at the wrong basket is fouled while attempting a shot at the wrong basket; not a shooting foul.

Altor Thu Jul 10, 2014 07:33am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 937526)
Backcourt violation?

If you're going to go there, shouldn't you have a delay of game warning at the time of the throw in?

Bad Zebra Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:38am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altor (Post 937552)
If you're going to go there, shouldn't you have a delay of game warning at the time of the throw in?

That's what I was thinking.

TriggerMN Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:06am

I don't care what the book says to do after the goal is scored in the wrong basket. Stop play, award the goal properly at the table, and have an endline throw-in to the correct team. That's going to clean up all the extra confusion.

Adam Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:17am

Quote:

Originally Posted by TriggerMN (Post 937563)
I don't care what the book says to do after the goal is scored in the wrong basket. Stop play, award the goal properly at the table, and have an endline throw-in to the correct team. That's going to clean up all the extra confusion.

Agreed, I have never had this happen where the proper team began the throw in after the goal. Just stop the game, make sure everything gets scored properly, and set them on their way pointed in the proper direction.

BillyMac Thu Jul 10, 2014 02:55pm

Archives ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TriggerMN (Post 937563)
I don't care what the book says to do after the goal is scored in the wrong basket ...

There's got to be a caseplay, or an interpretation, for this situation, but I can't find it. Where's Nevadaref when you need him?

This (below) is as close as I can find:

A SPECIFIC UNSPORTING ACT
10.1.8 SITUATION: Immediately following a goal or free throw by Team A, A1
inbounds the ball to A2 and A2 subsequently throws the ball through A’s basket.
RULING: The following procedure has been adopted to handle this specific situation
if it is recognized before the opponents gain control or before the next
throw-in begins: (a) charge Team A with an unsporting technical foul; (b) assess
a delay-of-game warning for interfering with the ball after a goal; (c) cancel the
field goal; (d) cancel any common foul(s) committed and any non-flagrant foul
against A2 in the act of shooting; and (e) put “consumed” time back on the clock.
COMMENT: If there is no doubt the throw-in was a result of confusion, the entire
procedure would be followed except no unsporting team technical foul would be
charged. A team technical would be assessed if the team had received a previous
delay warning. This procedure shall not be used in any other throw-in situation in
which an official administers the throw-in and a mistake allows the wrong team
to inbound the ball. (4-47-3; 7-6-6; 10-1-5d)

just another ref Thu Jul 10, 2014 05:22pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 937550)
Rhetorical questions, or quizzing our newbies?

I know you know the answer to this.


Actually, I see two different ways to look at it. What are you saying?

Raymond Thu Jul 10, 2014 05:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 937593)
Actually, I see two different ways to look at it. What are you saying?

A try is only at one's own basket.

just another ref Thu Jul 10, 2014 06:20pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 937594)
A try is only at one's own basket.

5.2.1 says that when the officials allow the teams to go in the wrong direction all points scored count as if they had gone in the right direction. When the officials allowed the wrong team to complete the throw-in and didn't blow it dead, as far as I'm concerned, they "allowed the teams to go the wrong way."

Raymond Thu Jul 10, 2014 08:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 937595)
5.2.1 says that when the officials allow the teams to go in the wrong direction all points scored count as if they had gone in the right direction. When the officials allowed the wrong team to complete the throw-in and didn't blow it dead, as far as I'm concerned, they "allowed the teams to go the wrong way."

That applies if the teams started in the wrong direction, not when get disoriented in the middle of action. Under your theory then Blue should been credited with the 2 points White's basket.

AremRed Thu Jul 10, 2014 08:38pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 937595)
5.2.1 says that when the officials allow the teams to go in the wrong direction all points scored count as if they had gone in the right direction. When the officials allowed the wrong team to complete the throw-in and didn't blow it dead, as far as I'm concerned, they "allowed the teams to go the wrong way."

That's only for starting the wrong direction at the beginning of a half, not the play in the OP.

just another ref Thu Jul 10, 2014 08:45pm

The example given is at the beginning of the game. Why would that not apply if it happened at some other point? What do you do if you discover in the midst of the proceedings that the teams are going the wrong way and you don't know when they started?

AremRed Thu Jul 10, 2014 08:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 937601)
The example given is at the beginning of the game. Why would that not apply if it happened at some other point? What do you do if you discover in the midst of the proceedings that the teams are going the wrong way and you don't know when they started?

If I somehow have a brain aneurysm and allow the teams to start going the opposite way during the middle of a half, I doubt my brain would be functional enough to remember the example.

just another ref Thu Jul 10, 2014 09:10pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 937602)
If I somehow have a brain aneurysm and allow the teams to start going the opposite way during the middle of a half, I doubt my brain would be functional enough to remember the example.

So what does that mean? At the 4 minute mark of the first quarter you discover the teams are going the wrong way. Nobody knows when they started. This is actually not as uncommon as one might think when young kids are involved. What would you do?

bob jenkins Thu Jul 10, 2014 09:56pm

I can see a TO in the middle of a quarter, and as part of the ensuing throw-in, the players all start going the wrong direction. Here, I'd let it stand, and fix it when discovered.

I think it needs to be that the referees are also just thinking that everything is normal, and that it's after some break in the action.

Or, use 2-3 (or whatever it is) to decide.

Raymond Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:38pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 937603)
So what does that mean? At the 4 minute mark of the first quarter you discover the teams are going the wrong way. Nobody knows when they started. This is actually not as uncommon as one might think when young kids are involved. What would you do?

If nobody knows when they started going to the wrong way, then I'm assuming young kids are also officiating. The video in the OP is clearly a situation of an "all of a sudden" moment, not a prolonged stretch of action where everyone played normally.

just another ref Fri Jul 11, 2014 12:05am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 937614)
If nobody knows when they started going to the wrong way, then I'm assuming young kids are also officiating. The video in the OP is clearly a situation of an "all of a sudden" moment, not a prolonged stretch of action where everyone played normally.

4 seconds elapse in the OP with the wrong team inbounding the ball and dribbling into its own backcourt. This may not qualify as a "prolonged stretch of action" to you, but it's more than a sudden moment to me. Clearly none of the officials are aware of the problem and they don't appear to be young kids to me.

BillyMac Fri Jul 11, 2014 06:12am

Let's Go To The Videotape ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 937595)
5.2.1 says ....

5.2.1 SITUATION E: During the pregame practice period, the visiting team
properly uses the east goal and the home team the west goal. The officials, by
mistake, allow the jumpers to face the wrong direction to start the game. A1 controls
the tap by tapping the ball back to A2. A2, realizing that he/she had warmed
up at the basket behind A1, dribbles to that basket and scores an uncontested
basket. RULING: Score the basket for Team A. The officials should stop the game
and emphasize to both teams the proper direction. The mistake is an official's
error by allowing A1 and B1 to face the wrong direction; not a correctable error.

5.2.1 SITUATION F: During the pregame practice period, the visiting team
properly uses the east goal and the home team the west goal. The officials, by
mistake, allow the jumpers to face the wrong direction to start the game. Several
baskets are scored before it is recognized that both teams are throwing the ball
into the opponent’s basket. RULING: All points scored count as if the teams had
gone the right direction and scored in their own basket. Once the mistake is recognized,
play shall continue with each team attempting to score in its own basket.
(4-5-4)

yooperbballref Fri Jul 11, 2014 07:30am

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 937549)
If the player in white heaves it toward the wrong basket and the buzzer goes off while the ball is in the air does it count if it goes in?

No points given, ball is dead when horn goes off unless on a shot.

Raymond Fri Jul 11, 2014 08:16am

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 937619)
4 seconds elapse in the OP with the wrong team inbounding the ball and dribbling into its own backcourt. This may not qualify as a "prolonged stretch of action" to you, but it's more than a sudden moment to me. Clearly none of the officials are aware of the problem and they don't appear to be young kids to me.

I could never fathom going the wrong direction after a free throw and letting it last more than 5 seconds. And if someone were to launch a shot a the wrong basket that goes in after the buzzer, I'm not compounding my complete ineptitude by scoring points.

And again I ask, so in the OP, you are going to the scorer's table and making sure they awarded 2 points to Blue for the basket they made into White's basket?

just another ref Fri Jul 11, 2014 11:18am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 937627)
I could never fathom going the wrong direction after a free throw and letting it last more than 5 seconds. And if someone were to launch a shot a the wrong basket that goes in after the buzzer, I'm not compounding my complete ineptitude by scoring points.

And again I ask, so in the OP, you are going to the scorer's table and making sure they awarded 2 points to Blue for the basket they made into White's basket?

In the OP, since the one basket is the extent of the damage, no, I think you credit it to white. However, had the action continued for any longer reaching the point where white also took a shot at the wrong basket, or had there been a turnover and blue again attacked the wrong basket, then I think it would fall under the "officials allowed the teams to go the wrong way" blanket, at which time the point would count for the team that shot them.

Adam Fri Jul 11, 2014 12:19pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 937627)
I could never fathom going the wrong direction after a free throw and letting it last more than 5 seconds. And if someone were to launch a shot a the wrong basket that goes in after the buzzer, I'm not compounding my complete ineptitude by scoring points.

Just to be clear, you're going to stop play here before the ball goes through?

Raymond Fri Jul 11, 2014 01:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 937635)
Just to be clear, you're going to stop play here before the ball goes through?

Most definitely.

just another ref Fri Jul 11, 2014 02:11pm

You stop play when you realize what's happening. The guys in the OP obviously didn't realize what was happening. If A gets a shot here that goes in after the buzzer, there's no doubt in my mind they would have signaled it good. After all this, it comes to light what had happened, you go back and take the points off the board and credit the basket at the other end to white? I don't think you can do that.

Adam Fri Jul 11, 2014 03:26pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 937636)
Most definitely.

No way to know what's happening here until 4 actually lines up for the shot. That's about a full second here. Even if I have notice, I have never stopped a player from shooting at the wrong basket, and I've never heard of anyone doing it. I will, however, enforce the rules (illegal dribble, 10 seconds, etc) and I would have stopped the clock and given blue the ball after they scored in white's goal.

just another ref Fri Jul 11, 2014 03:43pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 937640)
No way to know what's happening here until 4 actually lines up for the shot. That's about a full second here. Even if I have notice, I have never stopped a player from shooting at the wrong basket, and I've never heard of anyone doing it. I will, however, enforce the rules (illegal dribble, 10 seconds, etc) and I would have stopped the clock and given blue the ball after they scored in white's goal.

Agreed

bainsey Fri Jul 11, 2014 06:40pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by TriggerMN (Post 937563)
I don't care what the book says to do after the goal is scored in the wrong basket. Stop play, award the goal properly at the table, and have an endline throw-in to the correct team. That's going to clean up all the extra confusion.

Exactly. If you catch this, all other action becomes irrelevant.

Raymond Fri Jul 11, 2014 06:56pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 937640)
No way to know what's happening here until 4 actually lines up for the shot. That's about a full second here. Even if I have notice, I have never stopped a player from shooting at the wrong basket, and I've never heard of anyone doing it. I will, however, enforce the rules (illegal dribble, 10 seconds, etc) and I would have stopped the clock and given blue the ball after they scored in white's goal.

Once the wrong team inbounds the ball I'm stopping the game. So I will not have to stop the last second shot.

You and I may be talking about different portions of the play.

Rich1 Fri Jul 11, 2014 08:52pm

The ball goes through white's basket so 2 points for white, especially since this is not a case of an error on a throw in. I see it no differently than if a player got confused after a steal or in one of those crazy hypothetical plays that are occassionally posted here that have a pass some how go into a basket. Its still two points.

But, when white grabs the ball for the ensuing throw in I stop the game (hopefully I noticed) because it should be blues ball after the made basket.

I would not issue a tech per 10.1.8 for delay because the goal was nit the result of a try by white before they and they did not attempt a try at their basket. If everyone is confused then stop the game as soon as you realize there is n issue.

If they went back and forth for a few minutes before anyone notices, I don't see why you would remove any points scored unless you can exactly pin point what the score and time remaining was. If you take away the points then you should add back the time.

Mregor Fri Jul 11, 2014 08:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by TriggerMN (Post 937563)
I don't care what the book says to do after the goal is scored in the wrong basket. Stop play, award the goal properly at the table, and have an endline throw-in to the correct team. That's going to clean up all the extra confusion.

^^^^^This. I've been involved with this. Happened to me in one of my most memorable games ever over 10 years ago. Wish we had done that... But I'm ready if it ever happens again.

Here's my post 10 years ago.http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...ng-basket.html


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