Was this handled correctly?
 

A pass was thrown to the corner where my guy missed the steal but bumped the guy out of bounds. The official (two man crew) near center court didn't see the bump and whistled the play dead and signaled out of bounds on them, our ball. The other team, the crowd, everyone in the gym was yelling that he was pushed. It was at this point, a good 5-10 seconds later, that his partner walked up to him, and they charged a foul to us.

I asked the non-calling official "Did you see it?" "Did you blow your whistle on the play?" Was refused an answer. The only answer I got was we conferred and called the foul. They gave the foul to the wrong number, so it makes it even more suspicious.

I didn't make a big deal of it. Summer league HS game, and they did get the call right. But, was this handled correctly and legally?

When there is a foul and a violation the officials must decide which came first and go with that. However, the only way that either a foul or violation is called by an official is by blowing the whistle. Since only one whistle occurred in your play, I don't see how the officials could have had conflicting calls.

My conclusion is that a foul was probably missed and the officials incorrectly tried to fix it.

These weren't conflicting calls. As Nevada said, conflicting calls require both (or at least two) officials to make a ruling/blow their whistles. My guess is they handled it this way because it was a summer game but...that's no excuse.

One thing they legitimately could've discussed was which team touched the ball last before it went OOB. We do that all the time when we need help on a play as the calling official or, as the non-calling official, we're 150% sure our partner missed something. The only foul that could have been legitimately discussed in the OP would've been a technical foul for contact after the whistle. Failing that they should have let it go. Sometimes plays are missed.

No Double Whistles ...
 

Disagree that this requires two whistles. Official A sounds his whistle, and Official B, a split second later, decides not to sound his whistle because he assumes that Official B has the same call. Subsequently, Official B discovers that Official A did not have the same call, so they get together to discuss it to see if they can get it correct.

This is just like the out of bounds help that we occasionally give each other on weird deflections. One whistle. "Hey partner, did you get a good look at that?"

With the Out of bounds call, you are bringing information to your partner and your partner makes the decision to change the call. In a situation where there are who conflicting calls, then you are discussing what occured first, not merely providing information to your partner. If there is only one whistle, if makes it hard to justify having a discussion on what occured first.

In theory you may be right, but in reality, if the play is one where I'm going to assert to my partner that something else happened first, then I want to have a whistle. If I don't have a whistle, I'm not pretending like I had one when I don't like my partner's call.

The more common scenario that comes to mind for me is when there is a drive to the basket with some contact on the drive. One official has a whistle, the second official assumes that the first has a foul for the contact. However, the first official has a travel and going the other way. I can't imagine running in and making the case for a foul first if I didn't blow my whistle. If I do have a whistle though, even late, then we are going to discuss what happened first.

This is probably the first time in, well, ever that I agree with Billy Mac. It's summer ball. Most likely 2-man. The play is in a corner nowhere near my primary, but I happen to have eyes on it. I see the bump. I'm not blowing my whistle that far out of my primary. My partner hits his whistle, I am assuming for the bump. Instead he goes the other way. Takes me about 5-10 seconds to determine whether it's worth it for me to bring him info on the bump - but everyone in the gym saw it except my partner, so I'll go say something.

I work a lot of summer ball and I can see this happening easily. They got the play right.

This doesn't really fit into a call the game absolutely needs. Missed calls happen all the time -- are you going to go to your partner every time this happens? At some point you need to trust your partner. You have primaries for a reason and the expectation is you take care of yours and he'll take care of his. In 2 man the lane is kind of a dual coverage area, especially near the FT line, but unless there is a crew or game saving call in my partners area I'm not coming to get it or approaching my partner about it.

The play was in the corner, not in the lane. And if it's a call everyone in the gym saw except my partner, why is that not qualifying for something that I go talk to him about? This is summer ball. Whether people want to admit it or not, things are different in summer ball. I'm not going to split hairs over what the letter of the law says - I'm just saying I could see this scenario playing out exactly the way it happened. Even missing the number of the player. It happens.

I agree. I don't see anything that prohibits this, even if it looks bad.

The bottom line is getting the call right. I just don't think you want to make it a habit of making calls out of your primary.

I do. An official is attempting to enforce a ruling for a call which he failed to make at the proper time.
One can't retroactively officiate the game of basketball.
Let me alter the situation slightly to make the point.
A1 is on the wing near the end line and the Lead has PCA. A1 makes a quick move to get around the defender and elevate for a jump shot.
The attacking player clearly lifted his pivot foot prior to starting a dribble. The Lead doesn't call it and when there is contact during the try, Lead calls a defensive foul. 3-person crew: The Trail observed the travel, but didn't blow his whistle because he thought that the Lead had it when his partner's whistle sounded for the foul call. Can the Trail now go tell his partner that A1 traveled before the foul?
I think not. It is just a missed call.

The difference is one is a "whale" while the other is a "minnow". I don't think everybody in the gym is going to be going crazy about a possible travel in that scenario.

We can all come up with various scenarios in which we would or wouldn't overrule our partner. In the OP I think doing so was a fine decision.

I believe that you are still evaluating the situation improperly.
1. Whether coaches or fans "go crazy" about a play should have no influence on the decisions of the officials or the correctness of their actions according to the books.
2. Your idea that one is a big miss and the other is inconsequential doesn't impact the properness of an official NOT blowing his whistle and then trying to enforce a penalty. The egregiousness of the situation should determine when a partner DOES blow his whistle outside of his PCA.
3. By the book, no official can ever overrule a partner on a foul or violation call.

But just to humor you:...
Let's move my scenario to directly in front of the defending team's coach and say that he is going crazy about the travel and say that his team is up by 1 with 2 seconds left in the game.

With the sole exception of not considering it "overruling" my partner, I agree. I'm also not too keen of worrying about everyone going crazy, but that's a semantics difference, I think.

I'd be less inclined to do this with a partner with any significant experience, though.

First of all, I don't agree that allowing "crazy" fans/players/coaches to make the calls for you is okay. Nor did I say it was. I merely pointed out that this call in particular was an obvious error, as opposed to the not-so-obvious one you used in your example.

Secondly, I'm taking the context of the situation into account. While I'm not saying it's okay to blow calls in a summer league game, we're not talking about a high school playoff game here. Just like younger officials that start in the lower levels to improve and learn, doing so in a summer league game is fine by me.

Besides, while double whistles are sometimes understandable, they are generally frowned upon (at least in my area). So if an official passed on blowing his/her whistle believing their partner has the call, only to see their partner make a different call, then we don't have a situation in which the official "blew" the call. Correct me if I'm wrong (I by no means have the rule book memorized), but I don't believe a foul call MUST come after a whistle.

You're right. It was wrong to use the word "overrule".

We Both Fish In The Middle Of the Lake ...
 

... and I'm not using the word "overrule" here either. If I didn't blow my whistle because I heard my partner's whistle (double whistles are also frowned upon here in my little corner of Connecticut), but, otherwise, I would have sounded my whistle (dual coverage, or a "felony", "elephant", or "whale"), then I will only offer information, I will not overrule my partner. I try to stay in my primary, but sometimes one just has get the call right, whether it's sounding my whistle outside of my primary, or offering information (if I have it, and I'm 100% sure) outside of my primary, with no whistle. This, including out of bounds helpful information, may happen two, or three, times a season. Whomever sounded the single whistle, it's their call, 100%, and nobody, including me, is going to overrule them. They either like my help, or they don't. That's all I can expect. In all cases of high school games, this will be pregamed, all the time, every single game, whether I'm the referee, or the umpire, so it won't come as a surprise to anybody.

But I'm An Esteemed Forum Member Now ...
 

In total disbelief. :(

Well then, smartguy, why don't you point out in the rule book where it states that a whistle must occur for a foul to be called? You used the argument that an official can't call a foul without having blown his whistle beforehand, so how about you back it up?

Or would you rather just throw out jabs that do nothing to further the discussion or provide an answer?

I've had a coupletimes when I forgot to put the whistle in my mouth and yelled out foul.:o

The rule book doesn't say that. The mechanics manual does. 2.4.2B-1, page 34 (if you work 2 man), or 3.4.2B-1, page 70 (if you work 3 man). :D

That lays out the correct procedure in order to call a foul, but it does not say that a whistle must be blown before a foul is called. There are many instances where an official does not do things by the book, but that doesn't mean their call is incorrect or nullified.

Therefore, it is wrong to say an official can not call a foul if he did not blow his whistle beforehand. Which was part of the argument against doing what the official in the OP did.

When the manual uses words/phrases like "imperative", "definite procedure", and "should be performed in the order listed" that sounds pretty definite to me.

This isn't one of those instances.

The initial call was out of bounds, and after conferring with his partner the call was changed to a foul. Sure sounds to me as if the partner in this case made the call, but let his partner announce it.

And another official just told you he's made calls without blowing his whistle.

And again... the officials manual lays out the correct procedure. In doing so, it says it's imperative for a whistle to be blown in order for the procedure to be done right. It does not say nor imply that a foul called without a whistle doesn't count.

Are you saying the guy who called the OOB reported the foul that the other partner wanted? Sounds realistic.

NFHS 2-6 says "No official has the authority to set aside or question decisions made by the other official(s) within the limits of their respective outlined duties."

Don't those "respective outlined duties" include the primary coverage areas and foul calling procedures outlined in the mechanics manual?

Let's not include BNR's situation as "another official just told you he's made calls without blowing his whistle." That's an accident. I've had situations - before CMGs - where I've blown my whistle and the thing flew out of my mouth before it made enough of a noise. I put it back in my mouth and made the call/stopped play. Find something in the NFHS rules that allows live-ball fouls to be penalized without a whistle to accompany them. NCAA is different but that's because of the monitor rule.

We also shouldn't say it's a summer league game and we do things differently in summer league games. That's no excuse. Your partner misses one call in the process of making another. What makes correcting that particular call any different from any other situation like that in a game, summer or not? If you're going to do it once be prepared to do it the entire game.

Whistle While You Work ...
 

No whistle before a foul? Pregame dunking? Player not in the book? Some fights? Some technicals?

If a foul happens in the forest, and there's no official there to sound a whistle ...

If you guys would quit reading too much into it, you'd see that I was referring to the fact that the trail could very well go up to the lead official and tell him there was a foul before the OOB, and the lead changes the call from an OOB to a foul.

So, basically, the trail official made a foul call without blowing his whistle.

I'm also agreeing with Billy.

Had this happen in a BV game this season. Ball heading OOB in the corner, partner was pinned and didn't see the obvious push on the player that then hit the ball out. He had an immediate whistle and when he called the OOB, I put air in my whistle and came and sold the foul hard. I wanted to see if he had the foul and when he didn't, I felt it was worth a long distance call. Both coaches would've seen the push, as it was in the corner, tableside.

Mechanically, I handled it a bit differently, but the result was the same. There were no competitive matchups away from this action, why wouldn't I look there?

There's no reason to leave a call as incorrect when you know that it's incorrect. Fix it and move on.

(Picking nits) Unless we let them go in the wrong direction the whole game, this couldn't happen . . .:confused:

With all due respect, it is different. Summer AAU ball is a whole different beast than regular season high school ball in many ways. We don't care about most fashion rules (except jewelry). We allow illegal numbers. We have brand new table crews we have to deal with, who are usually inexperienced each game. We have different rulesets. We often work a minimum of 3 games - sometimes as many as 6 or 8 in a day. That certainly has an effect on our mental and physical capacity and how much effort is given. I'm not saying that's a good thing, but it is reality. My "best effort" in my first game is far different than my "best effort" in game 6. Partners are randomly assigned - you never know what level of experience you might get. So you may have to reach or handle situations a little different in a heated game with a weaker partner. The situation in the OP - we have no idea what the context was in that game - other that that specific situation. Based on my vast experience working AAU ball, I can see the OP as a valid scenario. Y'all can talk all day about following the letter of the rulebook. It is much more grey in summer ball.

With all due respect - it isn't and I have a little bit of experience as well. The differences you talk about in terms of rules (illegal numbers, etc.) are due to the rules in place for a specific tournament. As far as AAU goes, they normally follow NFHS or NCAA rules. If the people running the tournament tell us to handle certain things - cosmetic or otherwise - a certain way then that's what we do because that's who is paying us, which is no different that the regular season.

Regardless of what our best effort may be in terms of how many games we decide to work the manner in which we handle our in-game business overall shouldn't change. If we change the basic way we work between summer and winter it's no wonder we get complaints about consistency.


Billy, I said live-ball fouls.

In theory, sure. In reality, you handle your business as best you can given the cards you're dealt. In the OP, I think it was handled ok. They got the play right. Isn't that a good thing? I don't know if the process was awesome - we have a one-sided synopsis of the situation from a coach, but the end result is that they got the play right, and I'm ok with that.

This isn't a rule issue, it's a mechanics issue. Right or wrong, mechanics often need to be tweaked in summer games.

Now, quite frankly, I fall in with Rich, Smitty, and Billy on this. Are there time limits on how long one can wait? Sure, but it's fuzzy. Is there a minimum threshold for the severity of the foul before I call it like this? Yes, but it's fuzzy.

Agree.

And The Pigs Are Flying ...
 

Pretend that it's an NBA game.

Thanks, Nevada. (Hopefully, you took my comment as a friendly note. I only mentioned it to try to lighten the conversation a bit. You're one of the members of this board who's insight and comments are always appreciated.)

Get a room.

:)

Need A Long Lost Citation ??? Ask Nevadaref ...
 

He's also the Archive King.