Lane Violation and Clock issue
 

I had this happen in two games I did over the weekend.

1. As the lead official I administered a foul shot to Team A I did not catch that team A had a player in the space near the shooter which they can not have. I give the ball to the Shooter and he then tells the player to leave the lane for def purposes. The shooter makes it and I call a violation. The Coach for team A feels the basket should count since player A shouldn't have been there in the first place. My explanation was that we granted him that spot so when we put the ball in play he is in legal position and therefore could secure a rebound as well without penalty. I called violation because he moved after the shooter had the ball regardless of his position in the lane is this correct?

2. We had a situation where there was 6 seconds left in a game. Team A inbounds from their defensive end and start up court we notice when they get to around mid court the clock did not start on inbound but did start before we caught it. We put the ball in play at point of interruption. Was that correct or should we have started at the original point prior to the clock error?

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

1. <s>Once the shooter has the ball with A2 in the defensive spot, it's a simultaneous violation on A and B.

Cancel the shot and go to the next one. If there is no next one, use the arrow.</s>

You did it right.

2. There are no do-overs. If you don't know how much time to take off the clock, start from POI and make sure the clock starts.

Always try to have a count in this case so you know how much time to take off the clock.

Wait.

What?

Why a double violation?? Are you confusing this with A having a player in the first space?

1. The only requirement is that the defense shall occupy the first marked lane spaces (under normal conditions). Other spaces may be occupied by either offense or defense.

ART. 4

During a free throw, lane spaces may be occupied as follows:

a. Marked lane spaces shall be occupied by a maximum of two offensive players; four defensive players may occupy lane spaces.

b. The lane areas from the end line up to, and including, the neutral-zone marks shall remain vacant.

c. The first marked lane spaces on each side of the lane, above and adjacent to the neutral-zone marks, shall be occupied by opponents of the free thrower. No teammate of the free thrower shall occupy either of these marked lane spaces.

d. The second marked lane spaces on each side may be occupied by teammates of the free thrower.

e. The third marked lane spaces on each side, nearest the free thrower, may be occupied by the opponents of the free thrower.

f. Players shall be permitted to move along and across the lane to occupy a vacant marked lane space within the limitations listed in this rule.

g. Not more than one player may occupy any part of a marked lane space.

Doh! Yes.

Did they add a restriction on the top space this year? Unless this made a third offensive player... In which case, I'm wondering if there's a penalty for violating (a) above.

No sir ... however, the offense is still restricted to only two players in a marked lane space.

Welcome to The Forum!

You call was correct but your reasoning is slightly off.

I would suggest calling the violation when it occurs, not when the offensive player makes the free throw. If he has the ball at his disposal and his teammate leaves the lane, the play is technically dead right then, even before the free throw is taken. The only delayed violations are on the defense.

You did it correctly.

You can only correct the clock if you have definite knowledge of how much time should be on/off the clock. You can use an officials count (10 second count usually) to take time off. If you don't have an official count then you can not correct the clock. Leave the clock as is, and inbound from where the ball was when you blew your whistle to address the clock error (the point of interruption or POI).

Thanks I wasn't sure on the first one because the rules change between who can occupy what spaces. So I am clear it doesn't not matter who occupies the top spaces it can be occupied by off/or def as long as off has no more than three players including the shooter.

Correct. Keep in mind, it belongs to the defense if they want it, but if they don't take it, the offensive player can slide up into that spot: or cross the paint and double up on that side (as long as he is in position prior to the shooter catching the bounce from the official).

And Aremred is right, that's an immediate violation. I was so distrought from reading it wrong I forgot to point that out.

PS: What rule change?

Huh?
 

I don't believe just anyone can occupy the second and third lane spaces.

Rule 8-1-4 indicates that a teammate of the thrower "may" occupy the second lane space and an opponent of the free thrower "may" occupy the third lane space.

"May" indicates that the teammate in the second lane space or the opponent in the third lane space is not required. It can be left vacant. The first space, as we know, cannot be left vacant by an opponent of the shooter without penalty.

Nothing in the rule allows for an opponent to occupy the second space or a teammate to occupy the third space.

In other words, you couldn't have three opponents of the shooter on one side of the lane and one on the other side in the first space for the maximum of four for the opponent.

The only requirements are 2 defensive players on each lower block; no more than 4 defensive and 2 offensive players along the lane line. Following those restrictions, players can occupy any open slot.

My fault
 

I'll chalk it up to a brain cramp.
My apologies.

8-1-4f and the NFHS Casebook say otherwise.

8-1-4f. Players shall be permitted to move along and across the lane to occupy a vacant marked lane space within the limitations listed in this rule.


8.1.4 SITUATION:

A1 is at the free-throw line for the first attempt of a bonus situation. In (a), two Team B and two Team A players occupy the first and second marked lane spaces, respectively. B3 occupies one of the third marked lane spaces. A3 attempts to occupy the vacant third marked lane space; or (b) two Team B players occupy the first marked lane spaces. The offense chooses not to occupy any marked lane spaces. Two more Team B players choose to occupy the second marked lane spaces.

RULING: Illegal in (a), A3 is not permitted to occupy the third marked lane space. Only two offensive players may occupy marked lane spaces during a free throw. If the improper alignment is not corrected prior to the thrower having the ball at his/her disposal, a free-throw violation shall be called on Team A immediately. Legal in (b), four defensive players are permitted in any of the first three vacant marked lane spaces.

<s>Yet another rule where a little editing on the part of the NFHS could clear up confusion. For clarity's sake 8-1-4d should read: "Teammates of the free thrower may only occupy the second marked lane space on either side."</s>

Move along. Nothing to see here... :o

C'mon Guys, It's White, Blue, White, You Guys Know This ...
 

JetMetFan: You haven't clarified the rule, you've changed the rule. Teammates of the free thrower can occupy the third spaces as long as no more than two offensive players occupy the marked spaces, and as long as defensive players do not wish to occupy said spaces, although I'm not 100% sure about the second part (as long as defensive players do not wish to occupy said spaces).

"He's keeping a list, he's checking it twice":

On free throws, there is a maximum of two offensive players and four defensive players in the six marked lane spaces. The defense must be in the first marked lane spaces, above the neutral zone marks, on all free throws. The offense must not occupy the first marked lane spaces, above the neutral zone marks. For free throws when there are no rebounders in the marked lane spaces, i.e. technical fouls and intentional fouls, the nine nonshooters shall remain behind the free throw line extended and behind the three point arc.

Players in marked lane spaces must not move into the lane until the ball is released by the free-throw shooter. The shooter, and the players behind the three point arc, must wait until the ball hits the rim, or the backboard, before entering the lane, or penetrating the three point arc. In addition, the free throw shooter must cause the ball to enter the basket, or touch the ring, before the free throw ends. During a free throw, no opponent, including bench personnel, may disconcert the free thrower.

The HS rule is not the same as the NCAA-W's rule. Your wording changes the HS rule.

Why would you change the rule?

The only requirements other than the first spot and the 4-2 breakdown, is the fact that the offense is allowed to be in the second spot unless the offensive players vacates that spot. No reason to change the wording for that issue that is so rare in the first place.

Peace

A coupe of years ago I had a team try to slip a third offensive player into a vacant spot. Coach wasn't too thrilled when I didn't allow it.

I have never had that happen for some reason. I am surprised it does not happen, but never had it take place.

Peace

Sorry guys. I broke my "posting before 8AM" rule and misread the case play. Even worse because I know the NFHS rule is different from the NCAAW rule and I had that in my head as I typed the last post :(

The lesson here is ALWAYS count (especially in these situations).

Even though you will not be counting 10 seconds once the ball is controlled in the backcourt, since it is an end-of-period scenario, a simple count will nonetheless come in handy when this inevitably comes up.

The only reason I know is because it's happened to me. Won't get burned like that again.

Huddle up with partner before the final play (if a timeout precedes it) and just let your VISIBLE count do the work. That way, in addition to having definite knowledge, you won't have to stop the game at its most critical juncture and penalize a team for timekeeper incompetence.

So you will do a visible count in low-clock situations when none is required by rule?

Are you saying there is something wrong with this? I try to have a count in this situation, but it may not be visible. If it is visible it would obviously be easier to sell. As opposed to:

"Aw, he's just making stuff up now!"

Absolutely! If there is a clock error which I correct, there will be clear video evidence of my count.

Nope. I will count, but it will not be visible unless it is one of the required visible counts.

One Mississippi, Two Mississippi, Three Mississippi ...
 

What rule states that you don't have a visible count? Citation please.

NFHS 2-7-9: The officials shall conduct the game in accordance with the rules. This includes: Silently and visibly counting seconds to administer the throw-in (7-6), free-throw (8-4; 9-1-3a), backcourt (9-8) and closely-guarded (9-10) rules.

Now if you meant to say mechanics, under which high school mechanics set does it state not to have a visible count when the clock is under ten seconds? Citation please.

Agree. I count every time.

A canp evaluator, several years ago, stated that a backcourt count with fewer than 10 seconds remaining, indicated a lack of game/time awareness. So, since then, in HS games, I use a non-visible count in such situations.

I do. If I'm going to have to end the quarter or adjust the clock in this situation (I've done both), I'd rather have video evidence that supports my decision.

No.

Never said it was not allowed, just that it was not required.

What Rule ???
 

No, you said a little more than that. You said that is wasn't "required by rule". What rule doesn't require a visible count in low clock situations? Citation please.

NFHS 2-7-9: The officials shall conduct the game in accordance with the rules. This includes: Silently and visibly counting seconds to administer the throw-in, free-throw, backcourt, and closely-guarded rules.

No, you are reading in to what I wrote.

There is no rule that requires a count in low-clock situations where there is no count for another reason (backcourt count, closely guarded count, etc.). In other words, no count is required by rule.

I never said that a silent or visible count is not allowed in low-clock situations, that is what you assumed. No count required by rule ≠ rule requires no count.

He's right. It's not required by rule. You won't find a rule anywhere that "doesn't require" anything. What you will find is a rule that lays out the times a visual count is required (a series of rules, actually), and you won't find the OP in that list. Thus, it's not required by rule.

Now I realize you're from the land of "Nothing's Really Optional," but you know the difference, right?

And It Smells Fishy ...
 

So, since there can't be a backcourt violation with nine seconds left, or a five second closely guarded violation with four seconds left, we don't count?

Yeah. OK.

It's just that I've never, in thirty-three years, heard about a rule, or mechanic, that recommends us to not visibly, and silently, count under these situations.

Nine seconds left. Throwin in the backcourt. Unbeknown to the officials, the clock operator doesn't start the clock (mistake number one) for five seconds, which is not noticed by the inattentive officials (mistake number 2), so the trail, not visibly, and silently counting, as AremRed claims is the correct rule, or mechanic, allows the player to dribble the ball for up to fourteen seconds in the backcourt without a violation (mistake number three)?

As Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.'s old friend, Billy Shakespeare, once said, "Something is rotten in the state of Denmark".

Actually, I don't think you'll find such a "rule" at all. There are no visible counts that are required by the rules. The rules only require a count, without mention of visibility. Our mechanics (guidelines) tell us to visibly count, but it isn't a rule. All of the rule-based counts for which we use a visible count are still valid even if not visible. A 10 second violation is still a 10 second violation whether the officials was visibly counting or not. The fact that we make it visible is largely to inform someone that is observing that we really are counting...and to aid us in pacing the count.

The Invisible Man ...
 

There aren't?

Check out NFHS 2-7-9:

The officials shall conduct the game in accordance with the rules. This includes: Silently and visibly counting seconds to administer the throw-in, free-throw, backcourt, and closely-guarded rules.

(Note no mention of a visible count for a three second violation, usually one of my best calls.)

I stand corrected....I was looking in the rules about the counts themselves. And I did a search for "visible" just to be sure but didn't search for "visibly". :(

They should really put that rule in the section that, you know, deals with the counts.

I don't know, makes sense to put it in the section that spells out our duties rather than the players' prohibited actions.

I agree. It really isn't a "rule" because it doesn't place any requirement on the players nor does it carry any penalty in the game if it is not done. It is more of a required procedure.

Search For Tomorrow ...
 

I made the same mistake. After not finding anything relevant with "visible" in the search engine, I decided to do an old fashioned search ... with my eyes.

Also, you can sit down now, your legs must be getting very tired.