How would you handle this situation better (Video)
 

Marshfield Coach Ejected From Game - YouTube

<iframe width="853" height="480" src="//www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/xDC7LNAL4zk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Well, calling something on the contact in the lane would've helped (I have a block). Hard to think with three guys out there no one had anything on the contact.

Continuing the talk to the (newly-ejected) HC probably wasn't the best idea. Call the T, go administer. If she keeps talking and warrants a second, give her another one while you're at the table then continue to administer.

Why a block?

I don't subscribe to the "two players on the ground needs a call" theory, but you gotta have something here. Pretty easy block. Anyone could have gotten it, but it's Lead's primary.

Once you call the tech you need to get away. Walk away from the coach. Find a partner. Talk to that partner. If the coach needs another tech let a partner get it. Obviously you can get it if egregious but it's gotta be really deserved. Was this reaction to a missed call really deserving of an ejection? I don't know but if I knew I missed a call I'm probably giving the coach a bit more rope. Once you figure out the logistic of who is shooting what where and where the inbound spot is, go directly to the table to report while your P administers the FT. Don't report from the reporting area, go directly up to the scorers and talk to them face-to-face. If there is a timeout start the timeout after all the reporting is done and get away from tableside.

Also, don't hold onto your whistle like a blankie.

The defender took a step - more like a half-step - towards the shooter just before contact.

Defender is moving forward at the point of contact.

Unless it's an obvious second tech, then I like what AremRed said about letting your partner give the second tech/eject the coach. There was no reason for the guy that initially gave the first tech to stick around. Just walk away.

Then again, I didn't hear what the coach said. Maybe she went way too far in her response to the first one.

So?

This is a no-doubt-about-it charge for me, and the C is the guy who should've had it.

I do not think the C could necessarily see this. I think he would have guessed at best. I cannot see it from the angle other than contact and that players fell.

And because that probably was the case, the C was not "havin it." The only thing I would have said, after you have given a T, get away from her. If you give another one, then get away even more. Not sure why another official did not come to the trouble area and help out. I am also not saying that the officials could not give both Ts either. I am just saying that do not come to the problem so that it is only your word against their word.

Peace

While I do agree with, you (defender had two feet on the floor on the white line and did straighten up some, she didn't move her feet or body forward) it took me watching it several times, so I do feel there could be some doubt about it. As for handling the aftermath, I like to get to my partner fairly quickly after he calls a T to get him out of there. If I call a T, I am moving away from the coach toward a partner to talk about what is coming up next. If the coach wants a second T, he will have to earn it with my back turned.

Same with the L. It's probable both were straightlined, hence the no-call (which should have been something). Penalize with the T, and walk away. If the coach shouts at your back, you have to deal another.

BTW, I have a charge, too. The defender was moving forward during the drive, but obtained LGP before the shooter left the floor.

I've got a charge on the play.

As for the 2nd T, whatever she said, she seems to have said it before the official could even get away. I'm all for getting the game moving and switching, but not if that means ignoring something egregious. I can't tell what she said, so it's possible she left the official no choice. I'll defer to the official on site and assume she deserved both and gave him no choice.

I have a PC.

I can almost guarantee the C had a PC as well, but thought the Lead was going to call it...he takes two hard steps to his right, toward the half court line as if he thought we were sending it north.

The Lead does a sort of hand gesture that leads me to think he was about to call something but then thought it was too late, so he passes.

We need to call something and calling two T's is not the something I'm referring to...okay the coach gets one for mouthing off, but then I give a lot of leeway, especially cause we just kicked this play.

Uh no, he steps to the right because he is bailing on the rebounding play.

I have a PC.

Shooter never left the floor allowing the defender to move forward up to the point just before before contact. I believe the defender stopped in time.

My mistake. AremRed said it better than I did. At the point of contact.

I can be persuaded otherwise on the call itself but my overall point is no one put air in a whistle. If there was ever a play where you could have a triple whistle and an observer wouldn't complain, this would be the one. I agree with Jeff (geez, not again ;) ): the C may not have had the best look, which is basically the look we have on camera. That being said if he didn't have the best look it may have been because he followed the ball. So now we're left with the...

*T, who didn't seem to look ahead of the BH/dribbler once she beat her primary defender and the...
*L, who at the point of contact was doing a little Tower of Pisa lean into the lane and may have blocked himself out. He's watching the post, which is good, but one of the players he's watching ends up becoming the secondary defender so he really should've known her status (LGP/no LGP) at the point of contact.

Anyone else hope that when video like this is posted it's not from their state?

Oh, well. :D

I have a charge, but there needs to be a call either way. Game awareness might help. Twenty point game in the third quarter, and the losing team was likely on edge already and I am betting it wasn't the first comments from the bench. Definitely a T, but like others have said, he needed to step away. If she continues at him, then it is a no-brainer. Of course, we do not want the same official giving both T's, but sometimes, we do not have a choice. Had the official stepped away and then she continued at him with the "horrible" comments, no one would lose any sleep over him giving her the second as well. One of the co-officials needed to be quicker to step in as well.

I'm not inclined to give a lot of rope when I kick a play, for two reasons.

1. Most of the time, I don't think I kicked it.

2. Officials miss calls all the time, and coaches still need to maintain their composure.

The irony is this coach lost her mind because the officials missed a call that should have gone against her player anyway. Even if I was inclined to give rope to a coach when I kick a call, that wouldn't apply if my kicking the call went in her favor. Who knows, maybe they gave her player a break because of time and score, maybe they just missed it: either way....

Love this post. Just because I was straight lined or kicked a call.....does not give you permission to look like a moron.

Remember those refs who wore the GoPro's......I was thinking about wearing it for every game and emailing the coach/player/fan the video of how idiotic they look to me. We see vids on YouTube about the refs......as refs we need to fight back and post vid of the crazy we see :D

My guess is the coach lost her mind a bit because her player ended up a little hurt - might have been due to the shove she got from the kid who fell on her after the play, but it doesn't really matter. Especially in girls ball, any time a kid ends up on the floor, you tend to hear the "someone's gonna get hurt out there" nonsense. Of course the coach will want a call to go her way. I bet she would have gone even more crazy if they called a PC - only because her kid appeared to be hurt. I'm not saying that would be proper behavior - just basing it on experience.

All of those advocating a charge call here....good luck dealing with the coach after you make that call. If you thought she was pissed at the no-call, imagine her surprise when you're going the other way.

The thing about this video that bothers me the most is the L standing across the court dribbling the ball while all the crap is going down...he should have, imo, been the one to make the call, doesn't, and then does nothing to help his partner out.

I don't know what Lead was doing but he needs to do better. This is his play.

Great points, I agree.

Oh I agree that there is a certain line that can still not be crossed when I give a coach more rope. I'm not gonna allow profanity or personal comments.....I might just be a little lax on prolonged comments. Of course if the coach is still complaining a few trips later I'm going to ask him to move on. Obviously we need to take care of business when deserved but we should still try to manage the game before we have to resort to a tech.

Was that GoPro footage released?

It's the sad truth man, the tableside official usually gets most of the crap even if not his/her play.

Yep.

So?

Not necessarily. If the crew had made a call, even a charge, she may have not reacted at all or at least not as much. I think the lack of a call with a player who was injured is what infuriated her so much. It is when the officials don't make a call when it was clear there was a foul that is the problem.

Much of what was said already I agree with. I have a charge btw.

I'll pregame plays like this. I say something like, "If we have bodies on the floor and it warrants a call, I don't care if we have a block or a charge because if we have nothing, we're 100% wrong. If we at least have a whistle on the play, we will have at worst a 50/50 shot of getting it right. I'll take 50/50 over 100% wrong every time."

First time I watched it I had a PC. watched it three more times and still have a PC. Don't know what she said to get the second one, but it must have been the magic words, as she was walking away. He needed to get away and one of his partners needed to get in and be a buffer. Let her vent then settle her down. If she needs another one, let one of the other two do it if at all possible.

So what. That's a charge.

Good discussion and I agree that there could have been more participation in the situation by the other two officials. I haven't worked basketball for a few years now and I have a philosophy-type question. I fully realize that the answer to this may differ depending on where each of you are and your local practices.

As a softball umpire, I have been taught that if I eject a coach, I'm done with that coach. I'm not going to talk anymore to him or her and it's up to my partner(s) to deal with the coach and get him/her out of the area so we can continue the game. Is this same philosophy taught in basketball? Thanks.

I don't see how there was time.

When I eject a coach, I turn over all communication to game mgmt.

And this would not be any different than any other day of the week. And it also appears that she probably snapped for other reasons more than this call. Usually you do not go crazy like that over one so-called missed call.

Peace

I can dig it.

From my perspective, I know when calls are close and I know when calls are kicked. If I was in this game, I would have felt we just kicked it. I'm sure all three of the officials on this game felt the same.

The first technical is warranted because the coach gets crazy. But then we gotta walk away and allow them some time and space to diffuse. ESPECIALLY, cause I KNOW we just kicked it.

Just my 5 cents.

The collision happened at 6 seconds. The coach stands up to protest the call at 7 seconds. I don't know how she knew her player was injured in the span of 1 second, but it's possible.

This coach is clearly pissed because of what she thinks is a foul against her player, and a missed call (perhaps the final straw) by the crew.

All the more reason when it's this close to call a block here. We don't make calls in a vacuum, sometimes we need to add a little common sense to our calls. It's called game management and I thought more here would agree with me.

If there was a block called on this play I predict the offensive players coach would not have blown up, the defensive coach would not have protested at all, and this video is a non-story. Am I totally wrong here?

If you do not feel there is a call, then what common sense are we discussing here? And I see a lot of games where players fall and nothign was illegal. That is why I do not subscribe to the "If a players falls to the floor we must have a call." IMO we must know how they got there, but we do not need a call. And just making a call is not going to make a lot of coaches happy.

I think we worry too much about why coaches go nuts. You can be totally correct and a coach goes nuts. I have better things to be concerned with.

Peace

I was thinking the same thing. If something - anything - is called she may be upset but not as upset as nothing AND a player on the floor hurt. Add in the fact it's a 20-point game: A no-call on that play might give her the impression the crew checked out mentally.

You seem to be advocating calling the play a block because the visiting team is down 20 points and you think that such would appease the coach.
If that is the case, then that is the wrong way to officiate. We aren't there to make the coaches happy. We are there to ensure a player safety and a fair contest. Calling this a block because of time and score, not on the merits of the action, is grossly unfair to the defender and her team.

My opinion of this video is something that I've seen from many officials, yet don't agree with. They saw the play as a charge, but thought that with the visiting team down 20 they would let it go and not stick it to them. They were afraid of penalizing the team losing by a large margin. See how that worked out for them? Just "call the obvious" and don't complicate the situation with outside factors.

I am advocating calling that play a block because 1) I think it's a block, 2) if it's close you could still call it a block, 3) the offensive coach would be ok with the call, and 4) the defensive coach would be ok with the block call even if marginal.

I am not suggesting to call clear plays the opposite way just to give one team a call. That would be unethical. But I don't think this play is clear, and other factors come into play.

If we called something every time more than one player hits the floor in a girls game, we'd never get done. The C was reporting the T when the coach approached him; I fault the L for not getting between C and coach, he shoulda been over there telling her she had to take a seat for the remainder of the festivities.

This is what I was saying. No reason for either of the other 2 to not get in there and diffuse, while the calling official is reporting the T. Everyone just seems to be ambling around.

You're assuming too much.

Yes, she stood up, unhappy with the no-call at 7....but it took a few more, at 12, to get the T...and 17 to get the 2nd T.

That was certainly plenty of time for her to react to the initial play and react more to the player being down.

Still, the defender met all the requirements for LGP to make it a charge, so she really didn't have anything to complain about. And I'm not calling it backwards just because the team is down.

With due respect to you, points #1 & #2 are the only valid reasons for calling a blocking foul and #2 only comes into consideration if there had been similar decisions made by the crew previously in the contest.
I don't give a rat's behind about #3 & #4. I'll eat my whistle before I make calls based upon how a coach is going to take it.
LGP and the amount of force in the contact are the two factors that I consider on a block/charge play.

I'd typically agree with you -- obviously the goal is to get the call right. We don't make calls in a vacuum however, there is more that goes into a call than just what happened that time. You have to consider how the crew has treated similar plays, what was said in the pregame about different plays, and game management goes into it as well.

If this play was called a block, do you think the defender's coach would be sending this play in to the supervisor/assignor bitching about the call? I don't think so. Do you think the offensive player's coach would have blown up like she did? I don't think so. Again, not advocating making a wrong decision to appease a coach, but everyone would accept a blocking foul here. Does that mean something? I think it does. Sometimes we have to referee to expectations instead of strictly calling things in a vacuum. Refereeing the defense and getting the call right based on the rules and previous plays (for consistency) are my 1a and 1b priorities, but I think there are other factors that can also weigh in.

I would advise you to stop considering all the other factors you mention beyond your 1a and 1b priorities. They can only get you into trouble and possibly even get you accused of game manipulation.
Plus I'm only on board with your 1b on close decisions. I'm not going to call something incorrectly because a partner kicked a call earlier in the game.

You are certainly aware of the video age in which we officiate because you mention coaches clipping plays and sending them in. Let me share with you that I recall Nevada upsetting Gonzaga in the Sweet 16 in 2004 and the game wasn't really close. I worked the scrimmage for the NV team at the start of the next season and had seen the NCAA preseason video. There was actually a block/charge play from that game included. It was a Gonzaga player attacking the basket on a fast break and a Nevada guard back on D tried to take a charge. The official called a block. The NCAA video stated the play was a clear charging foul. But what I remember is the NV coach's comment at the scrimmage. We were asked to stringently enforce the upcoming POEs, such as offensive post players using their arms in a backward wrapping motion to hook/hold/pin defenders. Anyway the coach commented that he had seen the video and when he saw Mark Few on a recruiting trip at a summer tournament, he told him that he won by 19 and it should have been 21! So, coaches do notice such calls and remember them.

Lastly, to characterize certain calls as "game management" or state that a particular decision should be made because it will be accepted without a fuss seems to inherently admit the incorrectness of the call. The only game management fouls that I can envision as valid would involve cleaning up rough play during rebounding action and they would be to control the players not the coaches. Game management calls for coaches involve verbal warnings and technical fouls. A block/charge should never fall under this heading. I have complete anathema for making a decision because it will be accepted while the correct call will generate complaining. Consider many backcourt violations. Often the correct call of a violation gets grief because the coaches don't know the rule, while not calling anything will be accepted. That doesn't make it right. I also think that officials who do such are lazy and weak. Not saying that you personally would do such, just commenting in general on what I've observed over several years in officiating.

Keep in mind...

1. I never said I saw the play as a PC, though I did say I could be convinced ;)

2. When I wrote "Add in the fact it's a 20-point game: A no-call on that play might give her the impression the crew checked out mentally" I was dealing with the overall game situation regardless of which team wound up on the short end of the call. In other words...a no-call on a train wreck in a 20-point game gives the impression the crew has other things on its mind, like going home.

I don't officiate to the score or even to a play that happened earlier, for the most part.

In today's video age, the coach is going to send a clip in of the ONE PLAY he didn't like and I'm doubting that the supervisor is going to ask to see the entire game to judge whether that call was correct.

My only quibble is that while he blew the whistle at 17 for the second T, it took him two seconds to actually get his whistle out. She earned the second one in less than 3 seconds after getting the first one.

Again, I ask everyone who says he should have gotten out of there, how did he have time?

I don't think he was wrong to give both. She obviously said something she should not have said...

My complaint is that neither of the partners hustled over there at all. One slowly walked over. The other stood across the court dribbling the ball. One of them should have gotten over there and made sure nothing escalated after the T's.

T seems warranted.

I'm ok with a charge call here or the no call. I don't see it as a block so not willing to make up that call for "game management."

Both T's seem warranted but quick is succession. I work with a few guys do similar things, they almost allow more then I would allow before giving the first 1 but if the coach/player doesn't immedaitely respond to the whistle and T signal with silence and walking away they will almost assuredly give the 2nd one right away.

If someone is out of control the idea that I'm going to blow my whistle and make a gesture with my hands that is immediately going to rectify their behaviour seems a little extreme.

If I call that T its after I walk away from the confrontation and call/report it the table. Then leave to administer once its awarded the first time. If she's willing to chase me across the court to stay on me then she earns the second one and the title as the only woman willing to chase me anywhere.

Standing there and T'ing her up then creating no seperation while she is upset , and giving her the 2nd one for being upset in the same act, position, same dialogue you just t'd her up for. Your only a little past the point where if the coach "Terrible call , you moron!" then you could in theory give a coach a T for first half of the phrase and then the 2nd. Not defending coaches but its all 1 sentiment or expression of frustration. If after a time that expression of frustration won't stop (After you've walked away, after the t's been called, after you've tried to administer) sure ring coach up again.

I agree with this. He probably would have gotten both T's called anyway, but it would have looked better.

It's really more to the other two guys. Their walking around looking lost. Someone needs to hustle up and get over and be a buffer while the one is reporting the first technical.

I have heard some officials say that if you, as one of the partners heads over to the coach after they get whacked that it looks like the crew is split and one partner is trying to caudal the coach and be friends. I don't think I agree with this philosophy but could you all weigh in on that?

I agree, but in this particular video, none of us move that fast. She got her 2nd T before he could really turn to report the 2nd.

Some may think that's too fast, and want to allow the coach to finish the vent that earned the first, but there are situations that don't allow for that.

Had a summer game a couple of years ago where I stung an assistant coach, for jumping up to complain about a no-call. As I was reporting, he started the sarcastic clap and cheer. I continued my report and added another.

I'm guessing (key word) that she wasn't continuing her thought, but added some comment regarding his technical foul call.

This sounds perilously close to you saying we should make calls simply to calm the coaches down, or to follow the path of least resistance. I know that's not what you meant... but it sure is what it sounds like.

Hot Fun in the Summertime (Sly and the Family Stone, 1969) ...
 

I remember my parents saying, “Nothing good ever happens after midnight". The officials' creed should be, “Nothing good ever happens in the summer".

http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...tml#post686961

"It all happened so fast. It was all so surreal." (BillyMac)

Yep...and half the time it is the same people that just want to criticize you. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

If my partner gives a T, I am moving over as fast as I can. Let them vent a little, and let them know that they have to sit and if a second T is warranted then I can handle it. On the flop side, as in this situation sometimes it happens so fast that they same guy has to give both.

Really? Why would dealing with the coach here be any different than any other time? It was a charge. If the charge was called right they would have moved to the other end of court and any Ts would have been even more obvious.

I've gone back and watched the video again just to see what happened on the actual play and why it was missed at all.

The reason it was missed is twofold...

1. The L was way too close to the lane and was in a horrible position to see through the players. He should have been several steps off the lane. As the ball came around the corner and at him, he should have moved out.

2. The T was way too high after rotating. He should have been 7-8' closer to the endline, just above the top of the key, at the time the shots were going up. As it was, he was looking at the back of the dribbler...having no angle to see between the players. To make matters worse, the T bailed on the first shot attempt when there were two more to follow before the ball went in. Why have a 3rd if the 3rd is going to leave the play.

Both of those are lazy positions....not moving to get an angle on both and even bailing out to get back to the new lead. If the T has to be that high and bail on the first of 3 shot attempts so he doesn't get beat to the other end. Even the lead was eager to head to the other end before the shot went in and was 6-8 feet inbounds before the throwin occurred.

If either one had been in the right position, it would have been seen and called.

I disagree. I think the Lead was in great position to see this defender and the resulting contact. He should have seen this from where he was. Being wider could have helped, but on drives down the middle of the lane you want to be at close-down (according to the camps I have been to). Perhaps even stepping into the lane briefly would have helped.

The lead could easily see the defender, but not between the players.

I've found that a position where the players are coming right at you is usually the worst possible place to be. That is the reason we don't stand in the middle of the lane.

The lead was looking at the back of the defender....stacked, straight-lined, close look, or whatever term you prefer. Such a position may be good enough to see if the defender moves laterally after a shooter is airborne but is about the worst possible place to see if the defender is moving forward or not. You have to be to the side to see that.

Being in close down, or in the lane just doesn't give you any angle on that play. Being across the lane would have even been much better than where the lead was. Maybe you want to be in close down when the drive is coming down the other side of the lane, but not when it is coming right at you.

This goes along with my idea of the crew's collective head being elsewhere.

It took a while for me to notice the bail by the T since I was focused on the other two guys. If any of them needed to bail to beat these kids down the court (no knock on the kids intended but, bless their hearts, they don't look too fleet afoot), it's time to start rethinking their vocation.

I agree with Camron, the Lead has horrible positioning. Closedown/pinching the paint doesn't mean being flat and stacking yourself. You closedown to a position where you can still get the angle to see between the offensive player and defensive player.

When you're that close to the coach & table, sound your whistle, step way back into the FRA (even if this delay takes a few seconds), and issue the T, then take 3 simple steps backwards and then it's waaaaay easier for the coach to hang themselves, and for the your P to issue the 2nd T.

Need to look again. If you have a PC, which I agree with, V is the beneficiary of the "no call". If the coach went nuts because od the no call, what would she have done if the C correctly came in with a PC?

if you are so inclined...