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How would you handle this situation better (Video)
Marshfield Coach Ejected From Game - YouTube
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Well, calling something on the contact in the lane would've helped (I have a block). Hard to think with three guys out there no one had anything on the contact.
Continuing the talk to the (newly-ejected) HC probably wasn't the best idea. Call the T, go administer. If she keeps talking and warrants a second, give her another one while you're at the table then continue to administer. |
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I don't subscribe to the "two players on the ground needs a call" theory, but you gotta have something here. Pretty easy block. Anyone could have gotten it, but it's Lead's primary.
Once you call the tech you need to get away. Walk away from the coach. Find a partner. Talk to that partner. If the coach needs another tech let a partner get it. Obviously you can get it if egregious but it's gotta be really deserved. Was this reaction to a missed call really deserving of an ejection? I don't know but if I knew I missed a call I'm probably giving the coach a bit more rope. Once you figure out the logistic of who is shooting what where and where the inbound spot is, go directly to the table to report while your P administers the FT. Don't report from the reporting area, go directly up to the scorers and talk to them face-to-face. If there is a timeout start the timeout after all the reporting is done and get away from tableside. Also, don't hold onto your whistle like a blankie. |
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Unless it's an obvious second tech, then I like what AremRed said about letting your partner give the second tech/eject the coach. There was no reason for the guy that initially gave the first tech to stick around. Just walk away.
Then again, I didn't hear what the coach said. Maybe she went way too far in her response to the first one. |
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This is a no-doubt-about-it charge for me, and the C is the guy who should've had it. |
I do not think the C could necessarily see this. I think he would have guessed at best. I cannot see it from the angle other than contact and that players fell.
And because that probably was the case, the C was not "havin it." The only thing I would have said, after you have given a T, get away from her. If you give another one, then get away even more. Not sure why another official did not come to the trouble area and help out. I am also not saying that the officials could not give both Ts either. I am just saying that do not come to the problem so that it is only your word against their word. Peace |
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BTW, I have a charge, too. The defender was moving forward during the drive, but obtained LGP before the shooter left the floor. |
I've got a charge on the play.
As for the 2nd T, whatever she said, she seems to have said it before the official could even get away. I'm all for getting the game moving and switching, but not if that means ignoring something egregious. I can't tell what she said, so it's possible she left the official no choice. I'll defer to the official on site and assume she deserved both and gave him no choice. |
I have a PC.
I can almost guarantee the C had a PC as well, but thought the Lead was going to call it...he takes two hard steps to his right, toward the half court line as if he thought we were sending it north. The Lead does a sort of hand gesture that leads me to think he was about to call something but then thought it was too late, so he passes. We need to call something and calling two T's is not the something I'm referring to...okay the coach gets one for mouthing off, but then I give a lot of leeway, especially cause we just kicked this play. |
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I have a PC.
Shooter never left the floor allowing the defender to move forward up to the point just before before contact. I believe the defender stopped in time. |
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I can be persuaded otherwise on the call itself but my overall point is no one put air in a whistle. If there was ever a play where you could have a triple whistle and an observer wouldn't complain, this would be the one. I agree with Jeff (geez, not again ;) ): the C may not have had the best look, which is basically the look we have on camera. That being said if he didn't have the best look it may have been because he followed the ball. So now we're left with the... *T, who didn't seem to look ahead of the BH/dribbler once she beat her primary defender and the... *L, who at the point of contact was doing a little Tower of Pisa lean into the lane and may have blocked himself out. He's watching the post, which is good, but one of the players he's watching ends up becoming the secondary defender so he really should've known her status (LGP/no LGP) at the point of contact. |
Anyone else hope that when video like this is posted it's not from their state?
Oh, well. :D |
I have a charge, but there needs to be a call either way. Game awareness might help. Twenty point game in the third quarter, and the losing team was likely on edge already and I am betting it wasn't the first comments from the bench. Definitely a T, but like others have said, he needed to step away. If she continues at him, then it is a no-brainer. Of course, we do not want the same official giving both T's, but sometimes, we do not have a choice. Had the official stepped away and then she continued at him with the "horrible" comments, no one would lose any sleep over him giving her the second as well. One of the co-officials needed to be quicker to step in as well.
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1. Most of the time, I don't think I kicked it. 2. Officials miss calls all the time, and coaches still need to maintain their composure. The irony is this coach lost her mind because the officials missed a call that should have gone against her player anyway. Even if I was inclined to give rope to a coach when I kick a call, that wouldn't apply if my kicking the call went in her favor. Who knows, maybe they gave her player a break because of time and score, maybe they just missed it: either way.... |
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Remember those refs who wore the GoPro's......I was thinking about wearing it for every game and emailing the coach/player/fan the video of how idiotic they look to me. We see vids on YouTube about the refs......as refs we need to fight back and post vid of the crazy we see :D |
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All of those advocating a charge call here....good luck dealing with the coach after you make that call. If you thought she was pissed at the no-call, imagine her surprise when you're going the other way.
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The thing about this video that bothers me the most is the L standing across the court dribbling the ball while all the crap is going down...he should have, imo, been the one to make the call, doesn't, and then does nothing to help his partner out.
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So? |
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Much of what was said already I agree with. I have a charge btw.
I'll pregame plays like this. I say something like, "If we have bodies on the floor and it warrants a call, I don't care if we have a block or a charge because if we have nothing, we're 100% wrong. If we at least have a whistle on the play, we will have at worst a 50/50 shot of getting it right. I'll take 50/50 over 100% wrong every time." |
First time I watched it I had a PC. watched it three more times and still have a PC. Don't know what she said to get the second one, but it must have been the magic words, as she was walking away. He needed to get away and one of his partners needed to get in and be a buffer. Let her vent then settle her down. If she needs another one, let one of the other two do it if at all possible.
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Good discussion and I agree that there could have been more participation in the situation by the other two officials. I haven't worked basketball for a few years now and I have a philosophy-type question. I fully realize that the answer to this may differ depending on where each of you are and your local practices.
As a softball umpire, I have been taught that if I eject a coach, I'm done with that coach. I'm not going to talk anymore to him or her and it's up to my partner(s) to deal with the coach and get him/her out of the area so we can continue the game. Is this same philosophy taught in basketball? Thanks. |
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Peace |
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From my perspective, I know when calls are close and I know when calls are kicked. If I was in this game, I would have felt we just kicked it. I'm sure all three of the officials on this game felt the same. The first technical is warranted because the coach gets crazy. But then we gotta walk away and allow them some time and space to diffuse. ESPECIALLY, cause I KNOW we just kicked it. Just my 5 cents. |
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This coach is clearly pissed because of what she thinks is a foul against her player, and a missed call (perhaps the final straw) by the crew. Quote:
If there was a block called on this play I predict the offensive players coach would not have blown up, the defensive coach would not have protested at all, and this video is a non-story. Am I totally wrong here? |
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I think we worry too much about why coaches go nuts. You can be totally correct and a coach goes nuts. I have better things to be concerned with. Peace |
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If that is the case, then that is the wrong way to officiate. We aren't there to make the coaches happy. We are there to ensure a player safety and a fair contest. Calling this a block because of time and score, not on the merits of the action, is grossly unfair to the defender and her team. |
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I am not suggesting to call clear plays the opposite way just to give one team a call. That would be unethical. But I don't think this play is clear, and other factors come into play. |
If we called something every time more than one player hits the floor in a girls game, we'd never get done. The C was reporting the T when the coach approached him; I fault the L for not getting between C and coach, he shoulda been over there telling her she had to take a seat for the remainder of the festivities.
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Yes, she stood up, unhappy with the no-call at 7....but it took a few more, at 12, to get the T...and 17 to get the 2nd T. That was certainly plenty of time for her to react to the initial play and react more to the player being down. Still, the defender met all the requirements for LGP to make it a charge, so she really didn't have anything to complain about. And I'm not calling it backwards just because the team is down. |
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I don't give a rat's behind about #3 & #4. I'll eat my whistle before I make calls based upon how a coach is going to take it. LGP and the amount of force in the contact are the two factors that I consider on a block/charge play. |
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If this play was called a block, do you think the defender's coach would be sending this play in to the supervisor/assignor bitching about the call? I don't think so. Do you think the offensive player's coach would have blown up like she did? I don't think so. Again, not advocating making a wrong decision to appease a coach, but everyone would accept a blocking foul here. Does that mean something? I think it does. Sometimes we have to referee to expectations instead of strictly calling things in a vacuum. Refereeing the defense and getting the call right based on the rules and previous plays (for consistency) are my 1a and 1b priorities, but I think there are other factors that can also weigh in. |
I would advise you to stop considering all the other factors you mention beyond your 1a and 1b priorities. They can only get you into trouble and possibly even get you accused of game manipulation.
Plus I'm only on board with your 1b on close decisions. I'm not going to call something incorrectly because a partner kicked a call earlier in the game. You are certainly aware of the video age in which we officiate because you mention coaches clipping plays and sending them in. Let me share with you that I recall Nevada upsetting Gonzaga in the Sweet 16 in 2004 and the game wasn't really close. I worked the scrimmage for the NV team at the start of the next season and had seen the NCAA preseason video. There was actually a block/charge play from that game included. It was a Gonzaga player attacking the basket on a fast break and a Nevada guard back on D tried to take a charge. The official called a block. The NCAA video stated the play was a clear charging foul. But what I remember is the NV coach's comment at the scrimmage. We were asked to stringently enforce the upcoming POEs, such as offensive post players using their arms in a backward wrapping motion to hook/hold/pin defenders. Anyway the coach commented that he had seen the video and when he saw Mark Few on a recruiting trip at a summer tournament, he told him that he won by 19 and it should have been 21! So, coaches do notice such calls and remember them. Lastly, to characterize certain calls as "game management" or state that a particular decision should be made because it will be accepted without a fuss seems to inherently admit the incorrectness of the call. The only game management fouls that I can envision as valid would involve cleaning up rough play during rebounding action and they would be to control the players not the coaches. Game management calls for coaches involve verbal warnings and technical fouls. A block/charge should never fall under this heading. I have complete anathema for making a decision because it will be accepted while the correct call will generate complaining. Consider many backcourt violations. Often the correct call of a violation gets grief because the coaches don't know the rule, while not calling anything will be accepted. That doesn't make it right. I also think that officials who do such are lazy and weak. Not saying that you personally would do such, just commenting in general on what I've observed over several years in officiating. |
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1. I never said I saw the play as a PC, though I did say I could be convinced ;) 2. When I wrote "Add in the fact it's a 20-point game: A no-call on that play might give her the impression the crew checked out mentally" I was dealing with the overall game situation regardless of which team wound up on the short end of the call. In other words...a no-call on a train wreck in a 20-point game gives the impression the crew has other things on its mind, like going home. |
I don't officiate to the score or even to a play that happened earlier, for the most part.
In today's video age, the coach is going to send a clip in of the ONE PLAY he didn't like and I'm doubting that the supervisor is going to ask to see the entire game to judge whether that call was correct. |
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Again, I ask everyone who says he should have gotten out of there, how did he have time? |
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My complaint is that neither of the partners hustled over there at all. One slowly walked over. The other stood across the court dribbling the ball. One of them should have gotten over there and made sure nothing escalated after the T's. |
T seems warranted.
I'm ok with a charge call here or the no call. I don't see it as a block so not willing to make up that call for "game management." Both T's seem warranted but quick is succession. I work with a few guys do similar things, they almost allow more then I would allow before giving the first 1 but if the coach/player doesn't immedaitely respond to the whistle and T signal with silence and walking away they will almost assuredly give the 2nd one right away. If someone is out of control the idea that I'm going to blow my whistle and make a gesture with my hands that is immediately going to rectify their behaviour seems a little extreme. If I call that T its after I walk away from the confrontation and call/report it the table. Then leave to administer once its awarded the first time. If she's willing to chase me across the court to stay on me then she earns the second one and the title as the only woman willing to chase me anywhere. Standing there and T'ing her up then creating no seperation while she is upset , and giving her the 2nd one for being upset in the same act, position, same dialogue you just t'd her up for. Your only a little past the point where if the coach "Terrible call , you moron!" then you could in theory give a coach a T for first half of the phrase and then the 2nd. Not defending coaches but its all 1 sentiment or expression of frustration. If after a time that expression of frustration won't stop (After you've walked away, after the t's been called, after you've tried to administer) sure ring coach up again. |
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Some may think that's too fast, and want to allow the coach to finish the vent that earned the first, but there are situations that don't allow for that. Had a summer game a couple of years ago where I stung an assistant coach, for jumping up to complain about a no-call. As I was reporting, he started the sarcastic clap and cheer. I continued my report and added another. I'm guessing (key word) that she wasn't continuing her thought, but added some comment regarding his technical foul call. |
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Hot Fun in the Summertime (Sly and the Family Stone, 1969) ...
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http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...tml#post686961 "It all happened so fast. It was all so surreal." (BillyMac) |
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Really? Why would dealing with the coach here be any different than any other time? It was a charge. If the charge was called right they would have moved to the other end of court and any Ts would have been even more obvious. |
I've gone back and watched the video again just to see what happened on the actual play and why it was missed at all.
The reason it was missed is twofold... 1. The L was way too close to the lane and was in a horrible position to see through the players. He should have been several steps off the lane. As the ball came around the corner and at him, he should have moved out. 2. The T was way too high after rotating. He should have been 7-8' closer to the endline, just above the top of the key, at the time the shots were going up. As it was, he was looking at the back of the dribbler...having no angle to see between the players. To make matters worse, the T bailed on the first shot attempt when there were two more to follow before the ball went in. Why have a 3rd if the 3rd is going to leave the play. Both of those are lazy positions....not moving to get an angle on both and even bailing out to get back to the new lead. If the T has to be that high and bail on the first of 3 shot attempts so he doesn't get beat to the other end. Even the lead was eager to head to the other end before the shot went in and was 6-8 feet inbounds before the throwin occurred. If either one had been in the right position, it would have been seen and called. |
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I've found that a position where the players are coming right at you is usually the worst possible place to be. That is the reason we don't stand in the middle of the lane. The lead was looking at the back of the defender....stacked, straight-lined, close look, or whatever term you prefer. Such a position may be good enough to see if the defender moves laterally after a shooter is airborne but is about the worst possible place to see if the defender is moving forward or not. You have to be to the side to see that. Being in close down, or in the lane just doesn't give you any angle on that play. Being across the lane would have even been much better than where the lead was. Maybe you want to be in close down when the drive is coming down the other side of the lane, but not when it is coming right at you. |
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It took a while for me to notice the bail by the T since I was focused on the other two guys. If any of them needed to bail to beat these kids down the court (no knock on the kids intended but, bless their hearts, they don't look too fleet afoot), it's time to start rethinking their vocation. |
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When you're that close to the coach & table, sound your whistle, step way back into the FRA (even if this delay takes a few seconds), and issue the T, then take 3 simple steps backwards and then it's waaaaay easier for the coach to hang themselves, and for the your P to issue the 2nd T.
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if you are so inclined...
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