NCAA should adapt NBA travel: rule 2 steps after dribble ends, DivIII championship
 

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Here is another example of dribble ending and 2 steps. In NCAA tourney games this does not get called. No one protested these end of the game moves. "The Game" is at the point where people are comfortable with 2 steps after the dribble ends.

This isn't even remotely close to a travel. Gather happens, pivot foot comes down, never comes back to the floor.

Officials do not count the number of steps. Period.

Steps? We Don't Count No Stinkin' Steps ...
 

Rich is 100% correct. To judge if a player travels, or not, an official determines which foot is the pivot foot, and then, knowing the limitations on moving that pivot foot, applies the rule to decide if, indeed, traveling has occurred.

A player can take fifteen "steps" with his nonpivot foot (jab steps) and never travel, as long as the keeps the pivot foot stationary. He can then legally lift his pivot foot to pass, or make a try for goal. It's not a travel unless his pivot foot touches the floor before he releases the pass, or try. He can also legally start a dribble, as long as he releases the ball before he lifts his pivot foot, and of course, as long as he hasn't already ended a previous dribble, but that would be an illegal (double) dribble, not a travel, and that's a story for another night. And the next night I can tell you a story about jump stops.

And so often, we hear the crowd disparagaing our non-call of a perceived travel when the ballhandler hasn't controlled the ball. They seem to see only the feet, in such instances, with no regard for whether the player actually has control of the ball.

This is a travel. The dribble ends with his right foot on the floor, picks it up and puts it back before shooting or passing.

Stop video at 1:18 Ball gathered with 2 hands , right foot on floor. Then he proceeds to put left foot on floor and then right foot comes back down.

Here's the NBA rule on traveling when dribble ends:
b. A player who receives the ball while he is progressing or upon completion of a dribble, may take two steps in coming to a stop, passing or shooting the ball

This is exactly what he did

The idea that you can't travel during a fumble is one of the great unknowns to most coaches and fans.

With Apologies To Billy Shakespeare ...
 

Well put. A player can't travel if he doesn't have possession of the ball. Determining whether he has possession, or not? "Ay, there's the rub!" That's why we get paid big bucks to be at the game, and why fans have to pay to be at the game.

I've watched it, stop-actioned, frame-by-frame. I'm still not willing to say it's definitely a travel or not. Therefore, it's not.

I have one conclusion, though. Some people are great officials on the Internet or on YouTube.

I can't imagine anyone working a game of any real magnitude making this call.

Replay, Slow Motion, And We Still Can't Agree ???
 

You haven't been reading a lot of recent posts after a video has been posted, have you?

I do agree this isn't the best angle. Would like to see a shot from the endline.

My cable provider as a Media Hub feature which allows you to download DVR'd recordings. You may want to look into that. I'm not even trying to look at these videos.

Travel...catches with right foot on the floor, then steps left, then right again.

Not going to be called in real time Cam.

Why not, it looks pretty clear in real time.

Guys, you can call this play a travel, but you would be wrong. IF you think this is a travel (and make this call), I can assure you that you won't even come remotely close to getting championship game (regardless of level) assignments.

Well , you have gone from saying "that this is not remotely close to travel and you are on a crusade" to " I'm not willing to say it is a travel or not and a YouTube official" Not sure what that is all about: either 1) you don't know what a pivot foot is( probably not the case) or 2) gave a statement about something that you didn't look at properly

Now back to the point I was trying to make. In games of "real magnitude", I agree no one would make this call even though it was clearly a travel. So why not adapt the NBA rule and make it easy to call and catch up to the way its called anyway.
Not trying to ruffle feathers but the NBA has figured it out.

Maybe a travel should just be called when it happens.

You would be wrong. There is disagreement on this play from at least two officials who are championship level officials in their respective states.

You may want to refrain from such blanket assessments. ;)

Agree...likely not.

Hey, and I pulled you out of the shadows. :)

Was great working with you last week!

It was a travel. You might not catch it live, but it was. And if I saw it, I'd call it....and have called it.

If you think that getting a call right will keep someone out of a championship, they you have a funny way of judging ability.

Oh, and I know at least one multi-championship official that would have no trouble calling it.

Sorry, but that is a textbook travel. The dribble ends with the player putting both hands on the ball while his right foot is still on the floor. He then steps with his left and followed by his right.
Illegal. Too bad an NCAA championship game ended in such a manner.

That is about dumbest comment made on this forum in several years.

Said only you and the minority.

Make that two (and probably a lot more).

Guys:

I know many of you have impeccable credentials and I'm not trying to undermine them.

I would never question anyone's integrity. Even if it's technically a travel (I'm saying that for discussion purposes only) I just don't see it picked up and I don't see it called in real time in the floor. Not at this level, not at the D1 level. Why would it get called at a lower level?

A better philosophical discussion would be whether it makes sense for anyone to call something that not a single participant, coach, media person, or fan expects to be called. Can anyone find a single comment on this play other than on the officiating forum?

1998 D1 Men summer tournament, I called an obvious travel near the end of a Bronze medal game, on a breakaway dunk . . . it nearly cost me my contract. Our Supervisor was there, and let me know that although the call might be correct, by the rule, nobody wanted it called and in such a case, I should let it go . . .

A) Worst video ever.
B) What is this 2 steps nonsense?
C) Please review what a "gather" is and how it applies here before stepping back on the court.

This one's not really even close.

The issue here is not whether or not the footwork when broken down on video is a travel.

The issue is that in real time in real life when you determine the gather takes place.

I don't like the NBA rule as much as I like the NFHS/fiba rule and interps. I think that regionally/nationally and god forbid internationally there can be a better job done of establishing guidelines and following guidelines for things like:
-when the gather occurs
- difference between a stride and jump and step
- whether a step is what they want to take on the catch or could take
- when the ball leaves the hand vs. when the dribbling motion starts
etc.

I think it's pretty evident what the Op is referencing. The OP is referencing the NBA rule book, which specifically uses steps to determine the pivot foot. The play in question wouldn't even be an issue under NBA rules.

He needs some NBA quality video for me to know what he is talking about.

First of all, (I've seen this term here before) I don't really get what you mean by "technically" a travel. Traveling has no gray area. It is a travel or it isn't. Certainly some are easier to see than others, and, like most, I am in the camp of being certain. (If it might have been a travel, it ain't a travel.) Having said that, one can be certain and still be wrong. Looking at the evidence, it seems to me that recently in the NCAA we see roughly one wrongly called for every one hundred which are fairly obvious that are not called. This leads me to believe that, to some degree at least, the officials have been directed to let things slide, perhaps in the name of boosting the offense and producing a better product for the fans.

So, if a huge number of violations, some obvious, others not so much, are not called, this is what leads to the expectations mentioned above. It's not that they don't expect this violation to be called, but rather that they've seen it so many times without a call that they don't believe it to be a violation.

"They need to call it or change the rule."***

**Bob Knight, several years ago (paraphrased)

I'd rather miss one every time than EVER call one that isn't. I am someone who doesn't feel that there's a problem at all with traveling, however.

By rule, a player with one foot on a lane line is subject to being called for a three-second violation. Do we get such angina over this rule not being called strictly to the letter? Is there a cry to "change the rule?"

So the OP sees this play on SportsCenter and says, "That's a travel." Posts video here for everyone to see.

Serious question: Did he come here and post the video without looking at it a second or a third time (or in slow motion or stop-action)?

Again, I don't think there's a problem. The play in the video up top is consistently not called a travel. I wouldn't call it in a HS game. Matter of fact, I'm still not convinced there *is* a travel there. Surely I can't be the only one.

The move at the start of the play was just as egregious (which is to say, not very)-- the pivot foot was lifted before the ball was released

Thanks for sharing.

That is fine. If it is too close to tell at full speed, live, I'm fine with it not being called. That doesn't make it not a travel, it just means it is too close to tell. That really isn't the question, however. The real question is what you say next.
If you can see it and do see it and can tell it was a travel, are you upholding the integrity of the game by turning a blind eye to it? Do we normally make calls based on who we think might have seen it? I hope not.

And I can agree with that. I put traveling in two categories....those that put the defense at a disadvantage (or give the offense an advantage) and those that are meaningless.

A travel out at the top with the ball handler going nowhere is easy to ignore. Likewise on a travel on an undefended breakaway.

A travel that makes the job of a defender so much more difficult that it leads to a foul or allows the offensive player to get to a spot they otherwise couldn't have reached is one that shouldn't be ignored. It is fundamentally unfair to allow a play to result in a foul on the defense (as is often the case) because the travel wasn't that bad and many wouldn't have seen it when it allows the offense the extra advantage that the defender couldn't defend.

It is also fundamentally unfair to require the defender to obtain a position by some point in time (upward motion) if you're allow the offense extra steps to get around it.

Agree.

Unless you want HS and college to change the NBA rule, please stop writing "adapt" when the proper word is "adopt."

This is not a good comparison. There is no advantage gained by the player touching the lane line. The player who scores after a spin move which we knew was going to be a travel before he ever started the move is gaining a huge advantage.

Lack of traveling calls in the NCAA apparently is not a problem. They are consistent in their non-calls and those involved seem to be adjusted. The problem is when the spin move happens in my high school game and I do call it.

"He's been doing that all year without it being called."

I hear that, too. I called one in a regional final. Coach said, "I know that's a travel, but you're the first person who's called it." I shrugged. The player didn't do it again.

I'm not sure this one is in that category.

The one in the OP? I agree. Not close to this category.

Yep, and this makes me cringe. You can't blame them for doing something if it's never called. It turns things into a guessing game. What are they going to call tonight?

Great observation Bob!

Yes, this is a violation in slow motion replay, but in real time very difficult to determine when the player gathered the ball. Like the previous post said: I would rather miss one this close than put air in the whistle when there is nothing.

As has been mentioned, what happened at the start and the end were close in real-time and weren't called. Yes, they were violations. I'm not going to use the term "technically." As I said on another site - where Camron was the "victim" :p - "technically" just means it is but we don't want to call it.

Sometimes stuff just happens too fast to pick it up. The kids are fast, there are bodies around them and we just miss the play because we're not sure or we want to make sure the kid doesn't get hammered by a defender. It's not perfect but we're also not robots that can pick up everything. To echo what was said earlier in the thread, I'd rather miss one that's there than call one that isn't. And that comes from someone who has been trying like crazy to get better on calling travels every year for the past decade.

That's a good point -- I'm sure some interpret some of the posts here as "ignore the travels". It's not that, at all. I've worked hard as JetMetFan to better identify pivot feet and recognize traveling. It's just I will not call it when I have even 5% doubt -- most times when I have that doubt, the film shows I was right to pass on it. Sometimes the kids are just too fast.

Not being caught previously doesn't give them the right to break the rules. If I speed on the way to work everyday and don't get caught till Friday I bet I am still getting a ticket. I gambled and lost just like they do when preforming an illegal move.

This is true except more accurately you are speeding to work everyday but do not know the speed limit/ that you are speeding. Also everyday you drive by a police officer whos is allowing you to travel at that speed. Then one day on the way to work a different officer pulls you over and informs you that you've been speeding and you are getting a ticket.

He's not wrong but I bet you are way more pissed off than if the first guy had pulled you over and warned u/ given you a ticket on Monday.

Coaches get pissed off all the time. I can't base my officiating on how other people call games. If I had a dollar for every time a coach said this (in 3 sports), I could retire.

All we can try to do is educate through our associations and get people to call the games consistently.

With a travel the kid may not even realize (s)he is doing it if they haven't been nailed for it. I dinged a kid on three straight trips in a game two years ago and he got ticked (he would catch the ball and do a three-step shuffle - without dribbling - to set himself before getting his shot off). The HC calmed him down and definitely wasn't upset with me. The HC eventually told me:

"Ref, you're absolutely right. Those were travels. He's just upset because (wait for it...) no one has called him for it this season."

The game was in January. That's our fault.

I have had one like that in baseball already. Kid does this half windup half stretch thing that is a balk every time. Balked him on a Wednesday. Partner balked him on Friday. Following Wednesday I balked him again. "He's been doing that all year - no one has called it on him yet." Partner (who says what I think quite often) beat me to it with "Sir, I believe you need to upgrade your facial recognition software." and walked away.

LOL!!!

Peace

I put no stock in the "no one has called it all year" comment. It may be true, but it's at least as likely to not be even close to true.

It's still not the cops fault that you got a ticket for speeding. It's yours.

I think a lot of times it has at least some truth to it, particularly with the spin move. Player catches in the post with his back to the basket, makes the same move 3 times in a row. I call the travel 3 times in a row. I don't believe he just started using that move tonight.