Timing question
 

Trying to settle an argument.

For purposes of this discussion, assume perfect knowledge of the clock at all times mentioned, including TV replay if necessary.

Shooter begins to elevate with 0.2 seconds on the clock, and is fouled with 0.1 seconds on the clock. Fully 1 second later the still airborne shooter releases the ball, and it goes in.

Count the basket?

Mention ruleset if it makes a difference. Mention rule or caseplay if it applies.

The basket doesn't count because the ball was not released prior to time expiring. However, since he was in the act of shooting when the foul occurred, two (or three) free throws are awarded. If the ball was in flight when time expired, count it.

No basket - shoot free throws
 

No basket, but shoot free throws (unless it is end of the game and free throws are meaningless).

Count the basket, shooter to the line for 1 shot, .1 seconds on the clock.

Although I would hope that the official would have better game awareness than calling this foul, unless its a hatchet job, because in reality this shot "technically" won't count had the foul not occur. Even though I strongly believe in calling a foul when it occurs, there are rare instances where common sense, and awareness needs to be present.

Could you explain this further please?

This is only true if you don't have definite knowledge as to what to put on the clock. In the OP, the clock erroneously expired and you have the definite knowledge as to how much time is on the clock.

In this case, count the basket and put .1 on the clock.

I don't have a problem calling the foul in such a situation.

And remember that, under NFHS, if the last FT is missed, a FG can only be scored on a tap, not a rebound and try. Rule 5-2-5.

With replay, you have definite knowledge. The clock should stop on the foul.

Count the basket, 1 shot, put the .1 back up on the clock.

OK ... now that we have (nearly) unanimous agreement on that ...

Same situation - no replay - no definite knowledge of exactly how much time was on the clock ... just the order of events - shot starts; foul happens; buzzer sounds; then noticably after the buzzer --- shot leaves the shooter's hand and then goes in.

How did the clock erroneously expire? 5-10 states the referee may correct an OBVIOUS MISTAKE by the timer to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information relative to the time involved. The exact time may be placed on the clock.

Ok, I can hear you saying EXACTLY, he/she had definite knowledge. Then how do you justify this in 5-6 which keeps language in exception 3: "If a foul occurs so near the expiration of time that the timer cannot get the clock stopped before time expires or after time expires but while the ball is in flight during a try or tap for field goal."

The act of shooting began in the OP but didn't end with the foul. It ended when time expired and the ball was still in his hands. The foul at .1 did not end the try. So, what rule are you using to justify putting the .1 back up and counting the basket?

NCAA Casebook 2013-14
 

A.R. 232. In a game without a courtside monitor, the score is tied when the
referee calls a shooting foul on Team A’s unsuccessful attempt:

(1) At approximately the same time as the game-clock horn sounds to end the game; or

(2) With four seconds remaining on the game clock�

RULING: (1) When the official determines that the foul occurred before the sounding of the game-clock horn, and signals for the clock to stop and the timer fails to stop the clock, a timing mistake has occurred and the official shall put time back on the clock as to when the foul was called. In this case, A1 is awarded two free throws. When A1 makes the first shot, the game is over.

However, when the official signals for the clock to stop and it is so near the expiration of time that the timer is unable to stop the clock, this is not a timer’s mistake and time should not be placed back on the game clock. When the official determines that the foul occurred before the sounding of the game-clock horn, A1 is awarded two free throws. When A1 makes the first shot, the game shall be over.

On a foul that occurs near the expiration of time, officials must determine that the clock did not stop when the whistle sounded because a timing mistake occurred or because it was so near the expiration of time that the timer is unable to stop the clock. In the first case, time is put back on the game clock and in the second case, it is not.

(2) A1 shall be awarded two free throws. When A1 makes both free throws, Team B shall be awarded the ball out of bounds at the end line under Team A’s basket.

(Rule 10-1, Penalty d[1] and h)

Unless I'm missing something, see Walt's and Jeff's answers at #2 and #3, respectively.

Time didn't expire because you had definite knowledge that the clock should be stopped at .1 but for the error of the scorer.

Exactly! Just because we have definite knowledge doesn't matter. You have to determine whether it was a timing MISTAKE or not. The above is NCAA but similar wording is in NFHS rules as well.

The act of shooting began. Foul. Horn sounds after the expiration of 0.1 secs! That is not a timing mistake and you have yet to convince me, and apparently others, that it is. A timing mistake is the only time you can put time back up especially right at the end of quarter/half/game like in this situation. AND, how are you counting the basket?????? Even with a monitor, I am not classifying this as a timing mistake.

It is a given that the foul occurred at .1 in the OP. So, theoretically, the whistle should sound instantly and the clock should stop on the whistle. So theoretically, you put the .1 back on the clock. Realistically, this probably won't happen without replay.

Time for you to spend more time studying rules. With a monitor you would be wrong.

A.R. 271. With zeros on the game clock, A1 is fouled in the act of shooting
and then after the foul, A1 releases the ball for a try for goal. A1’s try is:
1. Successful; or
2. Unsuccessful.
RULING: When a foul and a try for goal sequentially occur at the
expiration of time, the official shall use the monitor to determine
whether the foul and the try occurred before the reading of zeros on
the game clock.
1: When it is determined that the foul occurred before the reading
of zeros on the game clock but the try was not released before the
reading of zeros, the foul shall be penalized. With the use of the
monitor, the official shall be permitted to put the exact time on
the game clock as to when the foul occurred. When the officials
determine that time should be put back on the game clock , the
game has not ended and the goal shall count. When the time of the
foul cannot be determined, the official shall be permitted to put the
exact time back on the game clock when it can be determined as to
when the ball passed through the net. When it is determined with
the use of the monitor that both the foul and the try occurred before
the reading of zeros on the game clock, the foul shall be penalized
and the goal shall count.
2: Since the try was unsuccessful, the official shall use the monitor to
determine whether the foul occurred before the reading of zeros on
the game clock. When it is determined that the foul occurred before
the reading of zeros, the foul shall be penalized. When it can be
determined, the officials shall be permitted to put back on the game
clock the exact time as to when the foul occurred.
(Rule 11-3.1.a.1 and .3)

A while back, they (NFHS) had a lag time rule that indicated if one second or less expired after the whistle, it was not an error. They removed that for a reason. Even .1 second is an error that can be corrected if you know what to put back on.

JohnnyD, as soon as I wrote the monitor quote, I did go back and pull out the book and I admit, when a monitor is present, you are correct. A.R. 35 covers it as well.

You are. Walt's and JEff's answers are incorrect.

You are correct and that is why I did go back to the book. Without a monitor though, I still stand by awarding the free throws and not counting the basket. Maybe I am thinking real world and considering it so near the expiration of time that the timer could not stop the clock. When we are talking about having a whistle at .1 and expecting an immediate recognition by the officials and/or stopping the clock by the timer, I just cannot see ruling that a timing mistake. With a monitor, using NCAA rules, I concede that I am wrong, and thankful I don't do a lot of games with a monitor (yet, hopefully).

This is the situation to which I was replying, MD: "Same situation - no replay - no definite knowledge of exactly how much time was on the clock ... just the order of events - shot starts; foul happens; buzzer sounds; then noticeably after the buzzer --- shot leaves the shooter's hand and then goes in."

With "no definite knowledge of exactly how much time was on the clock," how are their answers incorrect? In this scenario, a rapid sequence of events, you'd have no idea how much time to put back.

shot, foul--ok, official whistles the foul (shots awarded if outcome of game possibly affected)
buzzer--time expires
ball leaves the shooter's hands--after time has expired, so no basket

What is their error? If I'm missing something--and I'm being sincere, not sarcastic--please tell me what.

Ah - I misunderstood that you were taking their answers to the first (which were wrong) and applying them to the second question (where they are now right). got it now.

Got it. And yes, that's correct.

There is technically an "error" even if it's not something that can be corrected.

Lawyers call this "nunc pro tunc" ("now for then" is the rough translation): the wrong answer then is the right answer now!

I think I had nunc pro tunc at the Vietnamese Pho place yesterday.

I am thinking this might not apply to OP as it appears to describe a live ball with clock winding down and the shot at .2 seconds remaining.

However, what would your ruling be if this occurred on a throw-in at .2 seconds?

5-2-5 . . . When play is resumed with a throw-in or free throw and three-tenths (. 3) of a second or less remains on the clock, a player may not gain control of the ball and try for a field goal. In this situation only a tap could score.

NOTE: This rule does not apply if the clock does not display tenths of a second.

This rule has absolutely nothing to do with anything we're talking about here.

I have the same ruling in both cases.

I am just going to know how much time there was between my whistle and the horn. I don't have to see a clock to know it (though it helps). We have counts all the time that we can use and this is no different. Remember, counts are, by definition, correct even if they are not precise. That is considered definite knowledge.

Count the bucket, report the foul, put time back on the clock, shoot 1, players on the lane.

We're always making what we know are partial adjustments:

Clock doesn't start, we have 6 seconds of a BC count, followed by a gap, followed by 3 seconds of a 5 second count, then we notice. We'll take off 9 seconds, even though we know more probably elapsed.

This makes me less uncomfortable putting, at minimum, .1 second on the clock if I have definite knowledge the foul was before the horn.

And even though that 9 might have been 7.57 or 10.52 if it has been measured with a stopwatch.

The above is the NCAA ruling for games with a TV monitor. The time on the clock at the instant of the contact is restored, even if the whistle comes later.

For NFHS it matters when the whistle was sounded. That is what stops the clock, not the instant of the foul. The referee can only restore what time was remaining following the whistle with definite knowledge. Therefore at the HS level, it is possible that the try would count with a fast whistle on this play yet also possible that it properly should not count with a slow whistle.

Nothing like a good Pho Cup for lunch.

Sometimes lack of awareness and maybe a desire to show that you know the rules puts an official in predicaments that they (heck not many really) may be ill-equipped to handle.

Short of a very obvious foul in such an instance I don't see why an official would want to call something ticky-tacky.

In this instance barring a foul the shot would be waved off. Why reward the offense for marginal contact?

Ignoring the coach-speak, if the defense commits a foul on that shot, I'm leaning towards assuming the offense might have released the shot in time. The rule isn't that hard to administer (people have been shooting free throws with time expired since the invention of free throws.

I agree, and what I was trying to say, was that I try harder to not call ticky-tack fouls at the expiration of time. Without replay ability there are times when whistle and horn are so close it's hard to discern. Heck even with replay its hard as there is no sound with slo mo.

Honestly, I don't worry about "ticky-tack" fouls anyway. I'm not even sure what that means, because the coaches I hear the phrase from don't seem to have any consistent meaning behind it. Really, it just means any foul against their team where blood wasn't drawn.

Frankly, if my whistle blows at or after the horn on a foul I know happened before the horn, I've got no problem making the call.

Nowhere in the OP does it say the foul was "ticky-tacky" or "marginal."

And, those types of contact shouldn't (generally) be called at any time.

I try hard not to call those fouls all the time, but I'm sure you're not saying otherwise.

Guessing on what to put on the clock is a dangerous game. With replay I'm happy to do it and I'll go by the time of the foul absent other instructions.

We had a state quarterfinal game (called a sectional final here) on Saturday and I called a foul on a made basket and the clock ran out at the end of the third quarter. It was so loud, I never heard a horn. I needed to ask my partners if a horn sounded. Once I did, then the next question was did either of them have definite knowledge of the time on the clock when the whistle blew.

We ended up shooting the throws with the lane cleared.

If this comment is made with respect to the OP, then you are reading additional info into that post. It does not state that the clock was stopped and play resumed with 0.2 on the game clock.
It merely tells us that the shooter begins his motion at that time.

Could You Please Be More Specific ???
 

Time of the foul, or time of the whistle for said foul, because they probably aren't the same time.

Depends if I have a monitor.

Confused In Connecticut ...
 

So even though the clock is supposed to stop with the whistle (signals a foul), if you have a monitor, your can back up time and reset the clock to the time of the actual foul?

Yes, Billy, that is exactly what the text of the NCAA rule says to do. The rule is posted earlier in this thread. Scroll back and read it again. I also summarized that point in one of my previous posts.

What's the NCAA ?? Is It That Civil Rights Organization ???
 

I'm strictly a NFHS guy. In my high school game, if I get a good look at the clock during a last second foul called by me, and if the clock mistakenly runs down to the horn, I could only reset the clock back to my whistle (signal), not back to the actual time of the foul. Am I correct in that high school assumption?

Why are you confused... that's EXACTLY what the rule says to do.

Confused In Connecticut ...
 

It appears that I am confusing NCAA, and NFHS rules. I know more about rocket surgery, and brain science, than I know about NCAA rules.

I get it now. You are asking what to do in an NFHS game which allows the use of a courtside monitor for review of a last second try.
Barring specific instruction from your state, the monitor is only used to determine the release of the try vs the expiration of time, not the timing of any foul. At the NFHS level, the referee can only reset the clock to what was seen following the sounding of a whistle. The NCAA rule is certainly different.

Thanks ...
 

Thanks. Actually I was aware that a monitor could not be used for such a purpose, but I was wondering about a call where I had a really good look at the clock during my last second foul call, followed by the horn mistakenly sounding.

(Sidebar: NFHS. Can the monitor also (in addition to above) be used to determine a two, or three, pointer on a last second try?)

Your state may be different from what follows depending upon whatever specific language has been adopted, if any.
Here is the exact text from the NFHS rules book: "NOTE: A state association may permit game or replay officials to use a replay monitor during state championship series contests to determine if a try for goal at the expiration of time in the fourth quarter or any overtime period (0:00 on the game clock) should be counted, and if so, determine if it is a two- or a three-point goal."

I believe the crux of this thread and the PTS discussion currently going on comes down to these questions:

Assuming perfect knowledge of the clock, are we obligated to fix it?
Assuming we are obligated, in what situations should we fix the clock?
Is clock operator lag simply part of the game?
Is clock operator lag acceptable in one part of the game but not at another part?

What do you think?

I know one state that follows this to the letter.

I'm amazed that they will only consider the fourth quarter or overtime. A shot at the end of each other quarter can be just as crucial and as easily reviewable.