Common Sense
 

Playoff game, not mine but this did happen.

Team A is up by 1.

2 man mechanics.

Clock running in 4th quarter. Loose ball. Officials have a held ball. Clock stops with 0.4 seconds left. Immediately after the held ball whistle, team B calls time out and A1 runs to opposite end of court and jumps up and grabs the rim, thinking the game was over and they won. Does not pop the rim. Arrow is pointing to team A.

Team B coach wants a technical foul. Neither official saw it happen. During the time out they go to scorers table and ask, nobody saw it. After the time out they goe to A1 and ask him if he grabbed the rim, player says yes.

They give him a technical foul, B makes both free throws and wins by 1.

I'm simply telling the coach that I didn't see it and moving on, any thoughts?

I don't have a rule/case book with me, but in a seperate situation, there is something about hearing a comment come from the bench and calling a T, but having to keep it as a bench technical if you don't know for sure who said the comment. You're not supposed to ask, "Hey who said that?" with the point being that players/coaches are not required to come forward with any wrongdoing when questioned.

I think that would relate in the sense of the officials should not have asked, and if they didn't see it, then it shouldn't be called. If the player readily came out and told the officials that he had done it, without being asked, then maybe a T could be warranted.

I'll just say it would be hard not to call it if the player narc-ed on himself.

There's also nothing in 10-3-3 that says officials have to see that infraction to call it, though I'm sure that's the intent of the rule.

end of story

I've go nothing. If the coach from B keeps asking for the T I just tell him "Coach, I can only call what I see. Let's move on and finish the game."

Agreed. I'm reminded of the commercial where during the TO a coach is telling his kids who's going to throw the inbound pass and one of the players says, "Coach, I touched it last." The player goes to the ref after the TO and tells him and the ref gives the other team the ball. In that situation I'm saying, "I appreciate your honesty. You're a good kid to tell me. I called it as I saw it and the call stands." I wouldn't go asking about something a coach claimed. That could be a slippery slope.

This.

Further, how do you call a T for an act that neither official witnessed? This sets a REALLY BAD precedent.

There's nothing anywhere that says officials have to witness the act to rule on it, but it sureashell has to be assumed that's the case...otherwise, what's the alternative? Eyewitness testimony?

+1. So what if you do see it? Doesn't pop the rim, just jumps up and grabs it and let's go. 4 tenths left. Anybody calling it?

I'm not asking, that's for sure.

The dangerous thing about that phrase "common sense" is, it can mean very different things to different people. Some could say...

"It's common sense that you don't call a technical foul at the end of a game."

OR

"It's common sense that you don't grasp a rim during a game, or you could get T'ed up."

Or, a few other things. The reality is, common sense often means, "How come everyone doesn't think like I do?"

I may be in the minority here, but what is the true spirit and intent of the rule? Frustration..ok, intimidation/drawing attention to themselves...ok
Otherwise, I am treating this like a UFO.

Has he had any sportsmanship issues to this point?
Has his team, in general, been a problem?
Has his coach been a problem all game (or at all)?

Based on the answer to those being "nope"...I'm probably going to do a Sgt. Shultz impression here.

+1

I'm not asking and going on a detective spree. But if I were to have seen it, or my partner, no matter what it's a T.

Do you mean that if your partner tells you he saw it and passed on it, you would call a T?

I would ideally like him to make the call, but yes I would discuss it with him and if he didn't posses the testicular fortitude I would do the heavy lifting. It's a T, and not a judgement call.

I would also make it clear to him that I would report the situation to the assignor, if after a discussion he didn't want to call the T, and that he would be CC'd on any correspondence as he would be completely neglecting his responsibility.

Yes, that's an infraction. The rule states "grasp either basket" so that includes not only the ring, but the net, flange, and any braces too.

Stop fussing over whether or not a movable ring flexed or snapped. That is not part of or required by the rule.

Don't care about the time remaining or the score! Have the courage to make any call at anytime in the contest.

For the OP, if none of the officials observed it, it shouldn't be called.

I think every T involves a certain amount of judgment with regard to the context of the action. Do you call a T every time somebody on the bench makes a travel signal? "shall not attempt to influence an official's decision."
Would you call one if your partner told you he had seen this?

A brief show of exuberance for a kid who erroneously thought the game was over is unlikely to draw a T from me, let alone if I hear about it second hand.
jmo

This is my thought as well.

Sometimes there is discretion in calling a technical foul and sometimes there isn't. For unsporting technicals, actions which everyone in the gym can see need to be dealt with according to the rules.
Passing on the action described in the OP would be wrong. There is a clear rule which the player broke and he did it in front of everyone.
Btw even if time had expired, if he did this before the officials left, he still gets penalized, so don't use the excuse that he thought the game was over.

Varsity level playoff game? Only two officials? If so, that may be one reason why the action wasn't seen by someone on the crew. Probably not the only thing the crew "didn't see" that night through no fault of their own. Just a thought.

Exactly, I'm not going to ask non-officials if someone committed a foul or violation.

If I see it, it's a T.
If my partner saw it, passed on it, and tells me he saw it, it's a T.

This is not a judgement call.

If neither of us sees it, there's NO CHANCE I'm asking the scorekeepers if they saw it, and certainly no chance I'm asking any players.

Let us know how the conversation with your assignor goes when you take the opportunity to call this after one of your games. I am sure your assignor will be pleased you got the rule right:D

Did you learn anything from the Arizona/Arizona St 2OT game earlier this year?
This kind of behavior needs to be penalized no matter what is on the clock.

Guess you are still part of the camp saying that the game has been decided, so leave this alone. How did that work out for that crew with the PAC12 assignor?

The difference was that in the AZ vs ASU game time hadn't expired and the T should have been called. If the ASU player waited for the clock to run out and then dunked the ball and hung on the rim like that, not one person would have said a thing. Like I said in my previous post, good luck calling that after the time has expired. People will be impressed with you rules knowledge.

Since this is not a judgement call, I think you have a obligation to confer with the scorekeeper and/or timer as they are part of your crew.

I see this similarly to a situation if neither official saw if a basket was made on a shooting foul. This is not a judgement call either, the ball either went in the basket or it didn't. I would hope you would confer with your table in that situation, because you should.

The rules tell us we can confer with the table for some scoring issues. I would not consult the table for something like this.

Comparing this to a scoring ruling is ridiculous IMO.

No. Definitely not. Scoring issues... not this.

Not a chance.

I completely agree with Nevada on this one. I would not ask the scorer for help but if my partner did see it, and I said before, the onus is on us to call the T.

And I have had this T before. Team called TO in the 2nd/3rd qtr and their best player just runs to the basket and jumps and hangs on it.

As he did that and I was putting air in my whistle his coach was going "NOOOOOOOOOOO!" like in slow mo. Then he chewed the kid a new one. It was a pretty good holiday BV tourney.

After the game my partner asked me why I called it since it was a TO. I told him because it's a T by definition and not judgement.