Teddy Valentine(edited)
 

Did anyone catch the "interaction" between TV Teddy and Mick Cronin in the 1st half of the Cincinnati - UConn game today? No question Mick Cronin was out of line, but Valentine's response was even more inappropriate IMO.

Curious what others thought...

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Why don't you actually post what was done/said?

I have no problem with what Teddy did. Coaches think they can say anything and then officials are suppose to "walk away." Sorry, Teddy is a grown ass man and if you want to approach him in a certain way, then get read for the response. And or did not T him up or contact him. Good job of officiating.

I think we need to get away from this, "We are supposed to...." take where every crap these guys give out. He wants to wear the big pants, be ready to get it right back. ;)

Peace

I've said it before, the occasional "irrational" response to this sort of brutish coaching behavior can only be a good thing.

I had no problem with it. We don't know what was said. There is no one-size-fits-all for handling situations.

Maybe TV didn't want to give the coach the satisfaction of a T.

:rolleyes:

From ESPN.com:

HARTFORD, Conn. -- Cincinnati coach Mick Cronin said he sees a double standard with the way in which coaches are treated by officials after referee Teddy Valentine got in his face, almost nose-to-nose, during the second half of the Bearcats' 51-45 loss to Connecticut on Saturday.

"My beef with that is guys like Mick Cronin and Buzz Williams (of Marquette) of the world, we deal with some of it," Cronin told ESPN after the game. "When nobody gets in the Jim Boeheim's face or Mike Krzyzewski's face."

Syracuse's Boeheim did receive a technical and ejection when he protested a charge call to official Tony Greene last Saturday at Krzyzewski's Duke. Boeheim ran onto the court and confronted Greene and was ejected.

Valentine went to Cronin after calling an out-of-bounds play that Cronin challenged. Valentine then walked away as Cronin had to be restrained by his players and staff.

Official Michael Stuart issued two technicals and ejected UConn coach Kevin Ollie for coming on the court in a home loss to Louisville last month.

"I didn't appreciate it but I want you to know this, we have a relationship that's why he felt comfortable doing that," said Cronin of Valentine invading his personal space. "That ball was out on them I think. I took it personal. Where I come from you don't get in somebody's face."

Cronin said he has no problem with Valentine and is glad he's working the American conference after not being a regular in the Big East.

"He got in my face, I didn't get in his face," said Cronin. "Am I allowed to T him? That's what I asked him."

Cronin said he averages one and a half technicals a year. He said he wasn't going "to get a tech in a close game like that. If I get one it's because I want one or its uncalled for. This was much ado about nothing. They need to leave me alone. It's not my first rodeo."

Maybe ideally what should have been done is a T. But it's 2 adults hashing it out. Nothing wrong with one calling the other a fool over the first's insistence that he's the bigger idiot.

EDIT: after reading that piece I wish Teddy T'd him up. In my opinion you do no one a favor NOT T'ing a coach when he acts like a complete d'bag.

Most officials would get a call from their assignor for pulling something like that and it might the their last call from that assignor. I don't care what Cronin said or did, the possible options for any official do not include getting in the coach's face and barking at him (or even just getting in his face and being silent)....a T maybe or maybe not but not what he did. Until TV was in his face, the coach's actions were only minor. It was only after TV jumped in his face that the coach got irate.

And then, when Teddy went back to admininster the throw-in, Cronin said - (very easily read on his lips) "That's a b**ls**t call, and you know it!" - to which, I seemed to perceive a quick smile/grin on Teddy's face - and I got the impression that he restrained a full smile because he knew the cameras were on him.

TV sold the call so that everyone knew the exact reason UCONN was getting the ball. Cronin acted an ass over an OOB call he couldn't even see. He got an unexpected response, oh well, get over it.

My opinion is that TV overreacted. Oh well. I still think the occasional overreaction from an official is a good thing.

I would have just gone to the T.

Exactly. I was thinking through what I would have done if I were TV and decided that I would probably just laugh at the coach and tell him that if he wants to complain perhaps he should have a better view of the play. Cronin appeared to be at the 28 foot line, no where close to having a good angle.

I just heard Cronin's comments on ESPN about the incident.

Boo freakin hooo is my feelings.

Now a coach wants to be upset over how he is treated in relationship to another coach like Jim Boehiem or other high profile coaches. Really, JB got thrown out of a game recently. And I love that attitude when coaches as a way of doing business, treat us differently all the time. And guess what, we have to get over it. If we don't we will not be around very long or deal with it very well. We have to get over how we are treated.

I am so sick of coaches and fans thinking we have to "walk away" from every confrontation because it makes them feel better. If they do not want our response, stop being an ass!!!! That will solve the problem. Because if you came at an individual in any other aspect of life, you would get your behind kicked or you would have other consequences for your actions.

It gets more and more funny.

The more I watch the video, the less I think TV did anything wrong. Cronin is an a$$ for running down to the end line to confront TV. Cronin is also an a$$ for telling the unseen new Lead to "get over here", as if the official is his child.

On top of that, Cincy #2, the player who caused the ball to go OOB, got away a foul on the initial rebounding action that caused the loose ball.

Well, if Cronin was being an a$$ just call the T on him and be done with it. He would've been upset but when you run 28 feet to protest an OOB a T shouldn't be a shock.

I know Valentine can get away with things we can't because he has that status but no one in the building knows he has an otherwise good relationship with Cronin away from the court. Either call the T or give him the hand and put the ball back in play.

We're supposed to be above all this stuff, aren't we?

Yes we are.

We don't get to act like asshats just because the coach does. Our standards are different, and they should be. There are ways to deal with coach behavior. Mr. Valentine chose to ignore those and handle it his own way, which only accomplished throwing gas on the fire.

Have you ever considered that the way TV handles these situations is one of the reasons so many supervisors employ him?

Nope. Try it a few times and see if your supervisor keeps you on very long. My guess is if you try it, you're be canned before long.

I am not qualified to judge TV's action. But I will say this, I would not confront a coach in this manner. I would either ignore him because it's an OOB call and I'm all over it and he starts at half court trying to make an argument. Alternatively, I have him join the T party.

In either case, I'm not arguing an OOB.

Only A Small Cup, My Name Will Just Go So Far ...
 

I've never officiated a big time (or even a small time) NCAA game (although I have officiated in the Hartford XL Center, it's really bright out on that floor). I thought that Valentine's quick steps toward the coach seemed a little awkward, almost like he was charging the coach, and looking for a fight. If Valentine had just walked over to the coach and did what he did, then I would feel lot better about how he handled the situation (not knowing exactly what was said by the coach). That's my high school official mentality opinion, for whatever it's worth (my opinion and $1.75 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks, just mention my name).

Your answer has nothing to do with my question. Let's try again since you are making me the subject of the question for whatever reason.

TV has been doing this for a long time. TV is in many conferences. The AAC is a brand new conference sprung off the Big East. TV did not work in the Big East, so he is not a holdover hire.

Maybe, just maybe, supervisors like having TV out there because they like having a gunslinger on their staff who handles things just a little differently.

Based on your answer, TV will be fired from the AAC after this season, right?

I answered the question already. But here it is again in different words. There are reasons they keep him but this is probably one of those things they put up with to get the rest of the package. My guess is neither you nor I have what it is that is keeping him on staff when he pulls some stunt like that.

Fired From Retired ???
 

Well, I know, for sure, that he won't be doing any ACC games next year. Want to bet against me?

Why does the thread say (edited) now?

Anyway, I think Teddy's initial rushing over to the coach was fine. He had his ear turned and listened to the coach for a second, and repeated his signal.

I do think he shouldn't have stepped into the coach's face after that. Give him a tech and get away or put the ball in play and get away.

Well you do not have the "juice" that he has and neither do most of us. But to think we cannot ever say anything to a coach is silly. And often I can tell you that everyone is not happy that we give a T from the supervisor point of view.

Also he probably was not addressing the actual call, but the thing Cronin said.

Peace

Follow up.

Cronin Addresses Heated Argument With Ref - ESPN Video - ESPN


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Waaaaaaawaaaaaawaaaaaaaa!!!!!

Peace

I got more juice than OJ.:eek:

Favorite part: "If I get one it's cuz I want one, or it's uncalled for -- on an officials part". LMFAO.

Also enjoyed "They need to leave me alone." Right back atcha Mick.

Teddy V is looking gooooood!

The dude is slim and trim. Didn't recognize him.

If assignors were tired of his schtick, and wasn't any good, he wouldn't get games.

Just another whiny, self-righteous coach who doesn't do anything wrong just passing the buck to anyone but themselves for their actions.

I don't get the double standard that coaches can act like turds but an official who bites back is so unfathomable. We are all human and to expect such a disparity between the two groups at all times is unreasonable.

I am yet to hear of an basketball official (varsity or higher) making contact with a coach/player, running at a coach yelling, throwing chair/clipboard, cursing at a coach, complaining after every coaching decision, etc., etc., etc..

If we threw 1/10 the tantrums coaches threw basketball games would be much more enjoyable than they already are.

I agree deecee, we are not robots. Sometimes we just react, but I've never seen an official do something egregious.

Something was said by Cronin that caused the reaction by Valentine.
Very few people know what was said.

However, how many millions now have seen TV jump in Cronin's face?

Who looked like the aggressor?

I also agree that if any of us here did something like that....our schedules would be severly reduced, if not eliminated.

Yes, but this is comparing apples to oranges.

Big-time D1 officials are expected to put up with more crap than any of us are.

TV gave the coach multiple times to shut up and accept the call. And, like others have said, we don't know what the coach said to TV.

I don't have a big problem with it.

Anyone that knows the game knows the coach said something. Who cares honestly who is aggressive or not. We get accused as officials of doing our job and someone says we had no business dealing with the situation the way we did. If TV had called technical foul, someone here would have accused him of having "rabbit ears" or that the T was not warranted.

And no, I have approached a coach before and was accused of getting in his face (even though I just turned to hear the coach and ask him a question), my schedule not only got better, I have gotten better games and worked similar places in the playoffs I have in the past. Some think I will go further. And the situation I mentioned was brought to the attention of the IHSA and with the assignor. The assignor made sure me and some guys this year who I have worked with in the playoffs "better games" from his point of view so that he can get us more recognition for further post season assignments. And my situation was not on national television or even local television. ;)

Peace

I believe the number of people making that accusation would have been amazingly small - and all of them would have been wrong. Coach went WAY over the line and did so very quickly ... and then stayed there for a very very long time.

Only reason TV didn't issue the T had to have been a "First T buys the beer" bet in the locker room. :)

Yes, the coach went WAY over the line, but ONLY after TV jumped in his face and escalated the situation. Before that, his actions were suspect, but not egregious. If TV gives him the T then, it would look like TV baited him....and he probably did.

I think he could have called a T for the run the coach made down the sideline. That was akin to the run Kevin Ollie made at Mike Stuart a couple weeks ago. Even after Teddy went to the sideline and repeated the signal -- if he walks away and the coach continues it's an easy T.

It was an out of bounds call. No reason to go crazy over an out of bounds call where the official is standing right there and telling you why he made the call. I get disagreeing with the call, but acting like it was a tragedy with 10 minutes left in the game. And he is losing. A technical could have made the lead a lot worse for his situation. And he was not getting the ball back after the T.

Peace

The coach went way over the line LONG before TV got in his face. You don't go apeshit over a 50/50 OOB call that you can't even see from where you are and get away with it.

How did TV bait Cronin? Cronin initiated the confrontation. The most TV did was get close to Cronin.

He could have and that does not mean the criticism would not have been there. And TV is a big man, he did not come running 15 feet to get in anyone's face. He was already standing there. ;)

Peace

I love some of the revisionist representations of what happened here in the effort to defend TV. Why the insistence on defending him when what he did was so obviously out of line. Being a big dog doesn't give him the right to do what he wants.

All you have to do is look at the video. Cronin objected to the call with a reaction that was certainly suspect or even T-worthy, no question. If you're going to call the T there fine. Rather than penalize that or defuse the situation, TV steps right in front of him in his face, says something (who knows what), then Cronin's reaction is 10x what it was before. It is all on video if anyone cares to look.

If a player/coach got in someones face with the same stance, causes such a reaction, we'd all be taking action against that player/coach...probably even tossing them.

I have no beef with TV and generally respect his game, but he was wrong on this one.

What did he do that was obviously out of line? He stepped to a person yelling at him. Sorry, but I do not believe that officials are to act like they are children and only speak kindly to adults yelling at them. I feel that he is a man and if you want to yell and point at him, he has a right to step to you. I would be mad too if a I was short and a bigger guy stepped to me too.

And like other things, people have the right to disagree.

Peace

Agreed.

The whole notion that we can throw tantrums like the coaches do, or that it is OK for us to charge at and "get in the face of" a coach, is ridiculous. We are - and should be - held to a different standard than any other participants in the game. If a coach or player crosses the line, handle it in a professional way. If the coach goes personal, handle it in a professional way. Valentine is one of the best officials in the country, but this was out of line.

Camron I disagree with you here. What's wrong with after having to hear complaining and whining, game in and game out and coaches saying some pretty crappy stuff about once in a while giving some back?

He didn't T him up after that so who cares. If he were to have acted that way and then issued a T I would say, "shame on him". But why is the expectation that we are to act as robots all time ok and reasonable?

It takes two to make an argument. I see no point in contributing to an argument that I have the authority to end.

Tantrums are when people raise their voice, flailing their arms and continue with that actions. Stop it already. If you do not like someone stepping to you, that is fine, but let us not exaggerate. And if you just act like you cannot say anything, in my parts they will run over you. Sometimes they need to know you are right here. Teddy did not even appear to be mad, except for the stereotype that certain people cannot stand up for themselves without being threatening. And we know no one ever thinks of it that way. ;)

Peace

It would not be the first time.

I remember the T he called against the Texas coach a few years ago and then stood there for like 30 seconds until the coach said enough to get the 2nd T.

Couple of things....

Teddy looks good after having lost the weight.

Teddy IMO is dead a$$ wrong in this situation. You don't charge at a coach no matter what he says. As others have said we are held to a higher standard.

I find it interesting that Teddy also threw out a fan earlier in the week. He went about three rows deep on the baseline and ejected a gentlemen. Long season might be doing a number on Teddy... or maybe he needs a snickers to calm down.

I went to a men's D1 college camp in SoCal where an official made a call and went to report it. The HC went off on my partner. He got T #1 and waited at the table as the HC continued his rant. I thought maybe I should go help, but one of the clinicians close to me told me to stay in my spot and that my partner is a grown man and can/should handle this himself. The coach complained for about 20-30 seconds, got his second T and went off.

At the first stoppage of play the clinicians commended my partner for the job he did. Once a coach starts a tirade and is given a T, the message was, we don't run and let them continue. We let them have their say and we can determine if they get a second or not.

I wish this was drilled into HS officials, instead we are taught the complete opposite and T's have such a bad rep around them like it's the official's fault for handing one out.

Valentine's already admitted he was totally in the wrong to the AAC supervisor of officials.

I don't think he was right, I just don't get the big hoopla when an official looses his cool.

Man, I think you nailed it 100% with this comment. Sure we'd all like to react this way every now and again, but that doesn't make it acceptable. I teach high school, and sure I'd like to slap a couple of these smartasses upside the head...

I could not disagree more with that. Turning professionally to attend to the penalty and the coach following you is not running.

Standing there and then whacking gives the appearance of baiting. Actually it is more than appearance it is baiting.

From Seth Davis:

After the game, Valentine called the AAC’s supervisor of officials and acknowledged that he should not have stepped toward Cronin in such an aggressive manner. “I was just totally wrong. I was out of place by walking into his space,” Valentine told me by phone on Sunday. “It was just one of those situations where I got caught up in the moment. I was out of bounds because I walked into his domain. That’s why I didn’t give him a technical because I knew I was wrong, and two wrongs don’t make a right. If it had been 15, 16 years ago, I never would have caught myself like that.”

My respect for him just went through the roof. He's a better man than I am.

In my opinion, in the moment, that was a case of "I'M ALLOWED TO GET IN YOUR FACE AND SCREAM AT YOU! YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO GET BACK IN MINE!" And the video shows Cronin's face as soon as TV steps back toward him - the look on it is one of complete incredulousness. He is absolutely astounded that the official would come back in any kind of aggressive/defensive manner - and it takes him completely by surprise - and looks as though he's actually hurt by the gesture.

And it's total crap. And it's never going to change at that level, despite what some talking heads are saying (Bilas's fairly reasoned and poignant piece about it, for example), because it's "their" game.

I'm not suggesting that basketball officials - head coaches interactions should look and sound like baseball managers and umpires. I'm just saying it's a double standard. What those HC's get away with saying on a weekly basis to college officials during games is completely ridiculous. I don't care if they're the highest paid state employee or otherwise.

Actually quite the opposite. It puts the onus on the coach, after receiving his T, to turn around and end the yapping instead of continuing down the path that he/she is on.

Turning your back in this case is just dismissive. The coach hasn't ended his tirade and the message sent is that I give my T and run away so someone else can deal with the rest. I have partner/s that can get the players ready for the T. Baiting is egging him on. Standing and listening is standing and listening.

Maybe in a world where body language was meaningless....

First of all, I was responding to deecee's comments about tantrums. I never said Valentine threw a tantrum. Never even thought that. So maybe you need to stop telling people to stop exaggerating when they aren't exaggerating in the first place. ;)

Secondly, what the hell are you talking about stereotypes for? ;)

And lastly, Valentine has come out and said he was wrong for responding in the way he did. So I guess those of us who thought he was wrong in the first place are on the same page as him.;)

Just my opinion on this.

If the coach steps up to me in that manner, I'm almost guaranteeing a technical is coming. So, why should we as officials be allowed to approach a coach in that manner? I think TV was wrong, and in fact Cronin is right, I doubt he would ever to it to Coach K, or Boeheim.

And now the silence begins.

At least TV knows when he made a mistake. +1 to him. I have far more respect for a person who can make a mistake and admit it than someone who tries to twist what happened to come to an unsupportable conclusion.

Uh, that's the definition of a big dog.

I still don't have a problem with what he did. His one mistake will have a lasting effect on Cronin's behavior towards officials.

I have no problem with TV actions. I have always thought why do coaches get to act like idiots with officials just standing there to take it. Cronin is a wimpy wimp that is why Teddy needed to let him smell a little of what the Rock was cookin!