Here we go again!!!!
 

Had a game tonight that was a rescheduled game.

I had the host team 2 times previously and in both games the coach got a T. I gave the first one in one game at a Christmas Tournament. In the second game another official gave the other one in a one day shootout.

Of course when I took the game for tonight about a week ago, I knew this fact and like usual, I tell my partners before the game what happened before so they would not be blindsided by some animosity this coach might have for me. This was also a very big rivalry and the assignor of the game wanted me and my partners because we had deep playoff experience and in his judgment he wanted us together to showcase our talents to the state. So this game had other ramifications, at least in the mind of the assignor. I did think for a second to turn down the assignment, but I felt it could not hurt and just like anything a learning experience.

Well I was the Referee and I was doing my pre-game duties and I go to each coach to confirm some things with the book before the 10 minute mark. When I got to the host coach, he says to me, "You have us a couple of times before right?" I say "yes." Then he says, "I was T'd up both games." Then he proceeded to say he did not understand why he got the second T in the second game. Now keep in mind I did not give the T, but I am very aware why he got one. Long story short that official is about one of the nicest guys in officiating and felt the coach was being disrespectful and walked away from him after he was going to him to give him information. Granted he did other things, but that was the last straw. I did everything to avoid that conversation and then I left the coach and got to the other side of the court.

Well the game starts and this coach goes back to his old ways. But this time I decide that I am not acknowledging him at all. Even when he asks a question he is combative and argumentative not matter the answer I give him. We talk about it in the locker room and I just decide the second half to basically ignore him almost all together. The game ends and he gets not T and his team wins after being down in the first half.

This kind of situation never happened to me. Never had a coach ever make a point to say what happened in a game at that time before the contest. I did everything to be professional but did not know if I should have said other things.

What would you have done? Would you have even addressed it or come up with some other way to handle the situation?

Peace (Sorry for being long)

I would say short answers to direct questions with nothing extra.


Had you before a couple of times, right?

yep

I was T'd up both times, right?

I think so

I didn't understand the second T at all. What was that about?

I'm not sure. I'm not the one who called it.

Let's Bring The Other Coach Over To Discuss This ...
 

"Water under the bridge. This is a new game coach."

This was my line of thinking as well.

Years ago here in VA, the smaller schools played their girls' games in the fall, and I was in my 4th year of officiating. 4 minutes into the first game of the season I T the coach of the perennially best team in the conference. He was also hands down the worst behaved coach in the conference.

Fast forward to late in the season. His team is still undefeated and I have him at his place. As I'm walking through the hallway he bumps into me and tells me he doesn't understand why I T'd him, and it was the only T he received all season. I respond (maybe not the best response :D), "I find that hard to believe".

3rd quarter, his team is up 40 points. His team loses the ball via a scramble and held ball right in front of his bench, and my partner, who is the trail on the play. HC starts b!tching as I come over tableside to administer the throw-in going the other way. Following throw-in, play proceeds into opponents front court where my partner has a whistle for an IF against the offense (involving an elbow). But HC is still b!tching about the previous play and is standing next to the scorer's table, so I hit him with a T. Before I can walk away, he comes closer to halfcourt and starts screaming at me, so I bang him again.

All ejections are reviewed by the commissioner and VHSL (state), and it was upheld. I had his team on my schedule 2 weeks later (with the same partner) and my commissioner chose to keep me on the game. HC may have made one comment to me the entire game. The following season his team won state championship and he took a HC position at a D2 school in West Virginia. He was one of the best coaches I've ever seen at the HS level, but he was a complete a-hole towards officials.

I lot guys in my association patted me on the back for ejecting him, b/c they said a lot of us talked big about handling him, but I was the only officials who actually ever ran him.

+1, I was thinking the same thing while reading Jeff's op

Had you before a couple of times, right?

Possibly - I work a lot of games and don't remember everyone.

I was T'd up both times, right?

I don't know - like I said, I work a lot of games. I definitely don't memorize who got called for what. This is a new game.

I didn't understand the second T at all. What was that about?

Coach, we're not going to discuss previous games at all. This is a new game.

The whole conversation sounded passive aggressive and childish. Of course he knew you worked other games. Of course he knew he was T'd up. And finally he knew why got that second T.

1. Yup
2. Yup
3. I don't talk about the past

I actually agree with BillyMac. Whoda thunk?

#1 "Yep, good to see you again" as professionally as possible and using Dalton's "Be nice" principle.
I see #3 as inflammatory. The "Water under the bridge" tack would be a good one here.

JRut, did he say anything during this game that you would thump another coach in another game? I'm not saying you should have as I was not there, but how'd you feel about hitting the ignore button on him? I'm not sure I could restrain myself, short leash and all.

"No coach, I haven't. But I have a twin brother and you may have had him call some of your games. The main difference between the two of us is that I call a lot more technicals. Have a good game."

I love how you quote a Patrick Swayze B movie as some kind of principle on how people should act.

Seriously, I do.

Only because of the video that was recently embedded in one of our other discussions. Take out the movie reference and the "Be nice" principle is not a bad one to have. I've heard it in a lot of places and from a lot of mentors before I even knew it was in a movie. YMMV, I guess.

IMHO, regarding ignoring him, I think you did the right thing. Sounds like he was looking for a confrontaion anyway. By not acknowledging him, you made the game better on all levels. Forget for a moment it was a basketball game, I think your handling applies to any situation whether it be family, work related, or in public. You win, he doesn't get to screw up game, you do your job without having him turn attention on himself.

NU game the other night and friend was behind NU bench....Collins gets overly petulant with Ted Valentine who without whacking him tells Collins he's heard enough. Valentine then ignores Collins for rest of game as Collins tries to engage him. He's done with him. Collins knew his place.

I think in a subtle, non verbal way, let coach know he was done. Well played as far I see it.

That said, if he is overboard, you would take care of him.

I do not like ignoring coaches as a basic philosophy. But I feel like I am in a damned if I do, damned if I don't, moment.

He was just an annoyance. He would debate with the Pope if he came to him and said "Jesus loves you son." I did feel better ignoring him though. I just let him run his mouth about nothing and that is how I responded, with nothing.

I think he figured it out and is why he said what he did at the end of the game. But that is just my take.

Peace

I know the good looking guy that embedded it. Even though it is from a movie, it is solid advice.

From what I've heard, Collins had a rep of being a jack-wagon when he was assisting at Duke. He probably already has a short leash.

I missed it, what did he say at the end of the game?

"The next time I have you, I promise I will not get a T."

Peace

another approach
 

In most cases, you simply cannot reason with these types of coaches. They have firmly established reputations of being annoying, distracting and sarcastic. Ignoring them, trying to appease them or beating around the bush in response to their "innocent" questions does nothing to put them in their place and allows them the feeling they can continue to behave the way they do. It's the right thing for an official to have an "okay, it's a new game attitude." But if the coach doesn't have that same attitude, things are likely to start right after the opening tip, or, in Rut's case even before the game starts. We have a few of those coaches in our area and I have found, at least for me, it works best to deal with them directly, clearly and quickly. For example, if that coach is going to carry over what happened in the previous game, then I'm going to address his concern right now. "Coach, the rule allows you to coach your players within the coaching box. It does not allow you to coach, instruct or criticize the officials. You violated that rule. That rule will be enforced today as well." e-o-d.

Which is why I made reference to it. I for one appreciated it. BTW, don't get caught making out with your mirror. :D

Although you and your crew got through the game without T’ing him, you may have made it worse on the next crew that gets him. Based on your post, I can’t tell whether he deserved a T in this game and you chose not to give it to him because you ignored him or he was annoying but not to the level of a T. By getting the win and not getting T’d, whatever his behavior was during that game will probably be his standard or he’ll see how much further another crew will let him go. Most coaches that have been T’d on a regular basis know where the line is and when they’ve crossed it. Find out who has him next and see how he acted.

Of course, when he started you could have just taken a page from former MLB umpire Ron Luciano in his dealing with Earl Weaver...run him before the game even starts. :D

Many years ago, we had a former NBA player who coached his two daughters in our local kids rec league. He was, without a doubt, the most enjoyable coach I have ever had on a bench. Virtually every time we called a violation or foul, he would explain it to his girls. If they started getting "too many" fouls, he would request a timeout and speak to them about it, never yelling, just instructing.

He also would encourage them constantly and praise them on every good play. Sometimes he would remind them to listen to the officials and to do whatever we told them to do. If fact, sometimes he would even thank us for making certain foul calls against his team because it was "teaching his team why they were fouls".

If he wanted a rule explained, he would wait until a break then thank us for explaining it to him.

If I ever had to pick a "model coach", especially for young kids games, he was it. Oh yeah - his name is Kevin Kunnert.

And Monkeys Are Flying Out Of My ...
 

He learned from the Jedi Master

That's tough and there is no single simple answer. I had a weird one this year and I'll tell you what we did. D2, BV. 2-man state, work with regular partner. We ran this coach on a Tuesday at home. 2 direct T-s and one indirect (2nd direct came after first 2). Not a very good team, about middle of pack. Partner t-'s coach for wanting a cary call on high dribble. Demonstrative with large arm circles. Told to stop, keeps on, whack. We get together, as P administers FT's, I talk. He says I can't do this and does it again. I say no, you are trying to show us up. Asst, gives me the waive off so wack #2 and since he's bench, indirect to coach. Coach has to sit remainder and on a PC foul call by P, HC throws clipboard down. Wack #3. I tell coach he needs to leave. He just sits down and doesn't say anything. I go to table tell them to get AD here. They already on phone. AD comes in and I tell her HC needs to leave. She goes over and he slowly packs up and continues to stare us down. I'm fine with that, he's the one looking like a-hole. Just adds to our report that he would not leave and had to e escorted out.

Anyway, we have him the next week again as Visitor. Don't believe he can see officials names because he doesn't host. First time he knows is when he sees us in civies in stands of JV game. He immediately comes over and apologizes for his actions. I really thought it sincere. We accept and said thank you and that was it. But I was wondering what was going to happen because he was big time jerk that night. We talked about it and decided we would not even address it and if he did, we were going to say that was a different night and was not personal for us. I don't think it would have mattered as whatever we did, I'm sure it would have been revenge on our part. We thought about turning it back but then he would have beat us. By accepting the game, we were making a statment. Feel we did it right and got the best possible result. He actually coached and his team won when they shouldn't have on paper. Hopefully he learned something. We did.