Iowa State-West Virginia

[ballgame99]

I don't see any bad intentions in the OP kick. His foot got higher than it should have, his momentum carried him into the defender and made contact and got caught in the jersey and should have been called a foul, but he doesn't seem to really 'kick' the guy and the contact is low. I don't see a FF1 or intentional. The punch on the shooter is an easy FF2. You are winning by 30, why on Earth are you punching a shooter?

[APG]

Originally Posted by ballgame99

I don't see any bad intentions in the OP kick. His foot got higher than it should have, his momentum carried him into the defender and made contact and got caught in the jersey and should have been called a foul, but he doesn't seem to really 'kick' the guy and the contact is low. I don't see a FF1 or intentional. The punch on the shooter is an easy FF2. You are winning by 30, why on Earth are you punching a shooter?

Because his teammate just got kicked in the chest and nothing was done about it.

[ballgame99]

Originally Posted by APG

Because his teammate just got kicked in the chest and nothing was done about it.

Good point.

[deecee]

make the first call and the second never happens.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by deecee

make the first call and the second never happens.

Naturally. The kick is a big miss, imho.

[BatteryPowered]

Originally Posted by ballgame99

I don't see any bad intentions in the OP kick. His foot got higher than it should have, his momentum carried him into the defender and made contact and got caught in the jersey and should have been called a foul, but he doesn't seem to really 'kick' the guy and the contact is low. I don't see a FF1 or intentional. The punch on the shooter is an easy FF2. You are winning by 30, why on Earth are you punching a shooter?

Since when do intentions come into play? Rarely does a player "intend" to commit a foul...it happens, but most are just normally occuring during the course of play.

Since I cannot possibly know the intentions of a player I can only make a decision based on what I see...and I see a flagrant foul on the rebounding kick. I also don't consider contacting a player above the waist with the sole of your foot to be "low contact".

I also do not care about the momentum of a player. Suppose A1 is running down the floor full speed toward B1 who clearly has LGP standing (NOT MOVING) half way between the FT line and the basket. A1 leaps into the air and releases a finger roll attempt then plows into B1. Are you going to ignore the contact? Clearly the momentum of A1 carried him through the air and into the stationary B1.

[ballgame99]

Originally Posted by BatteryPowered

Since when do intentions come into play? Rarely does a player "intend" to commit a foul...it happens, but most are just normally occuring during the course of play.

I also do not care about the momentum of a player. Suppose A1 is running down the floor full speed toward B1 who clearly has LGP standing (NOT MOVING) half way between the FT line and the basket. A1 leaps into the air and releases a finger roll attempt then plows into B1. Are you going to ignore the contact? Clearly the momentum of A1 carried him through the air and into the stationary B1.

I would say "intentions" come into play when you are calling an "intentional" foul typically. Now I realize an NCAA FF1 is different to an NFHS intentional, so you are probably right as it relates to an NCAA FF1. I'm honestly not aware what all that rule covers. Maybe intentions is a bad term, I'm saying it wasn't reckless, but was just a consequence of a hustle play gone wrong. Whether I should consider that or not may be a good question. The officials here went to replay and called it a FF1, so I'm probably wrong. That's just what I see.

And I'm not saying the momentum excuses the foul at all. In fact I clearly said it was a foul. I'm just saying his momentum took his foot where it wasn't supposed to go vs. him kicking someone. Again I was getting more to the intention aspect of it all. In a HS game do I have rules justification to call that an "intentional" foul? I don't know, I'm asking.

[APG]

Originally Posted by ballgame99

I would say "intentions" come into play when you are calling an "intentional" foul typically. Now I realize an NCAA FF1 is different to an NFHS intentional, so you are probably right as it relates to an NCAA FF1. I'm honestly not aware what all that rule covers. Maybe intentions is a bad term, I'm saying it wasn't reckless, but was just a consequence of a hustle play gone wrong. Whether I should consider that or not may be a good question. The officials here went to replay and called it a FF1, so I'm probably wrong. That's just what I see.

And I'm not saying the momentum excuses the foul at all. In fact I clearly said it was a foul. I'm just saying his momentum took his foot where it wasn't supposed to go vs. him kicking someone. Again I was getting more to the intention aspect of it all. In a HS game do I have rules justification to call that an "intentional" foul? I don't know, I'm asking.

The reason the NCAA went to flagrant 1/2 terminology was precisely because people think that intentional fouls always require intent. That is simply not the case. You can intend to make a basketball play, but in doing so cause excessive contact and still commit an intentional foul.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by ballgame99

..
... Again I was getting more to the intention aspect of it all. In a HS game do I have rules justification to call that an "intentional" foul? I don't know, I'm asking.

In HS, at a minimum I'm calling it an intentional for excessive contact.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

In HS, at a minimum I'm calling it an intentional for excessive contact.

Same for me on both levels regarding excessive contact. Once I get the IF/F1 out of the way I'm talking with my partners about whether the kick should be an F/F2 and in the NCAA game if there's a monitor we're taking a look.

As has been said, if the kick is called the second call probably doesn't have to be made.