adding name to book
 

During halftime, scorer informs official that A6 played in the first half, but his name is not in the book. Official realizes scorer is correct and instructs scorer to add the name and begins the second half with a T on team A. Is the official correct?

Can an official direct that the name be added to the book in this situation?
If A6 had not scored or committed a foul during the first half, does that alter how the official should handle this?

The infraction, that must be penalized when it occurs and prior to the ball becoming live, is the act of adding the name to the book. If the coach says A6 will not play the rest of the game, does his name have to be added to the book?
(I seem to remember an old case play related to this, but haven't been able to find it)

Too late to force the addition. Inform the coach, and the scorer, that if A6 plays again, the book will need to be updated and the appropriate T will be called. Remind the scorer not to update the book until you are informed.

3.2.2C(b) in last year's book (what I have handy)

Too Late ...
 

3.2.2 SITUATION C: Team A substitute No. 25 reports to the table for the first
time with approximately one minute remaining in the second quarter and is beckoned
onto the court. In (a), the ball is put in play by a throw-in from A1 to A2.
The horn sounds and the scorer informs the officials that No. 25 is not listed in
the scorebook. In (b), No. 25 plays the remainder of the second quarter. During
halftime intermission, the official scorer realizes No. 25 is not listed in the scorebook
and informs the officials when they return to the court before the start of
the third quarter. RULING: In (a), No. 25 is currently in the game and became a
player when he/she legally entered the court. Since his or her name and number
must now be entered into the scorebook, a technical foul is charged to Team A.
In (b), no penalty is assessed since No. 25 is not currently in the game. If No. 25
attempts to enter the game in the second half, his or her name and number will
be added to the scorebook and a technical foul charged to Team A. (3-2-2b; 10-
1-2b)

Remember, during intermissions, all team members are bench personnel.

I Hate It When This Happens ...
 

Many administrative infractions can involve the scorebook and rosters. If a team adds a name to the team roster after the ten minute time limit, then a team technical foul is charged. When such a player legally enters the court, the player’s name and uniform number must be entered into the official scorebook. In order to penalize this infraction, the offending team member must be one of the five players currently in the game. In addition, if a team requires the official scorer to change a team member or player’s uniform number in the official scorebook (with exception), after the ten minute time limit, then a team technical foul is charged. If there is no request for change, or if a team member does not become a player, thus avoiding the change, there is no penalty.

Three scorebook situations: adding a name to the team roster, changing a name or a number in the official scorebook, and/or having a player change a uniform number, are penalized with a team technical foul when they occur, after the ten minute time limit. These infractions occur when the scorer is advised to add to or change the official scorebook. The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live. Once the ball becomes live, after such changes have been made to the scorebook, it is too late to penalize.

Remember, the technical foul isn't for the undocumented team member participating in the game, its for adding his name, and number, to the scorebook.

So when A6, who is not in the book, checks in and we becon them on and the ball becomes live, they are now a legal player. Then when the table lets us know they are not in the book, but are on the floor playing, isn't it too late to penalize? (According to Case book play 10.1 maybe) We just instruct scorer to add their name to the book and play on. Is that not how it supposed to be interpreted???

And also, if we would penalize this with an administrative technical foul for not having A6 in the book, if we had say player A7 check in with a wrong number, would we also T this one or because of the first administrative T already been given, it would count for all the changes that need to be made? I would think that the first T would count for any changes to be made in the book the rest of the game, or am I mis-interpreting that wrong?

This comes under 10-2, and lists 5 possible infractions. The Penalty states: "One foul only per team regardless of the number of infractions."

No, that's not how it's supposed to be interpreted.

If they are playing, but not in the book, then it's a T to add them.

If they've been added, but you weren't informed until later, then it's too late to penalize.

So when they check in and the scorer just adds them without saying anything to us and they play, then the scorer says something later it's too late, but if they let them come in and don't add them to the book then let us know when they receive a foul or points it's now a T? I just don't get that interp from Case book play 10.1.2

I first of all would say that this scorekeeper isn't doing their job.Not when there are all sorts of options to prevent this-
A.Have the coach write in players
B.Pull #'s from previous game and ask coach to verify or make additions/subtractions.

I assume you mean 10.1.2?

"The foul must be charged when it occurs" and "Once the ball has become live it is too late" seem pretty clear to me.

So player checks in, not in book, no one says nothing, they play, couple minutes go by, scorer says not in book, TOO LATE RIGHT? That is what I thought was pretty clear.

"IT" is "adding to the book", not "player enters game"

What is the T for?

Hint: It's not for playing.

I check the book at approximately the 12 minute mark, that way teams have time to make changes/additions if necessary without penalty. Then, when all is well, I will make a mark after the last name and sign my initials. That way, if a change is made after I've checked things out, I can tell and act accordingly.

Ugh... pretty clearly incorrect. Several people have answered this quite clearly. I'm not getting your confusion.

Double Your Pleasure ...
 

This (as you well know):

I do the same thing, but it isn't as if there's anything physically preventing them from erasing that line and writing another name and number in there without telling you.

Meh... true. I guess we just feel better doing it. LOL

I think it would help an honest scorer pause to think.

We wait till after 10 here to check the book. Most of the time the books are still trying to get everything copied fairly close to the 10 minute mark(of course there is nothing saying that the books have to be done at 10 minutes just the rosters need submitted) here when its the second/third game of the night.

This is one of the recent and in my opinion INCORRECT rulings published by the NFHS. Over the past five years, the NFHS issued some really poor rulings which don't mesh with the text of the rules book.

If one consults rule 2-11-1, one will see that the scorer is required to keep a record of all team members who start the game and all substitutes who enter.

So where is such a record kept by the scorer? It isn't in a notebook in his pocket. Yep, this record must be kept in the official scorebook. In order to accurately do this, the team member who participated in the first half must now have his name and number entered. The penalty for that is a team technical foul.

Note that the ruling by the NFHS for penalizing an excessive time-out is to do so whenever it is discovered at any future point in the game. The team doesn't get a free pass just because the time-out is over and the ball has been made live again or the game has now advanced to the next quarter.

How a governing authority could issue rulings that are diametrically opposite in the fundamental principle is unfathomable.

Whenever ...
 

2007-08 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 11: A1 requests and is granted an excessive time-out. The excessive time-out is discovered (a) immediately; (b) when A1 has the ball at his/her disposal for a throw-in following the time-out; (c) during a dead ball after three minutes have elapsed off the game clock. RULING: In (a), (b) and (c), assess a team technical foul to Team A for the excessive time-out. Team B is awarded two free throws and the ball for a division line throw-in. The penalty for an excessive time-out is assessed when discovered. (10-1-7 Penalty)

There is a key difference between the penalty for adding a name to the book and an excessive time out. The first is penalized "when it occurs" and the second "when discovered."

There are many rules and situations where it is "too late" to penalize. The scorer failed to notice the illegal entry. That player did not score or commit a foul, so his presence was not officially recognized. It seems to me the interpretation is in line with the rule (10-1 Penalty) that makes a distinction between "when it occurs" and "when discovered."

Look at the case play 10.1.2, which says that if the name is added late to the book and the ball is made live without the technical foul being assessed, "it is too late to penalize."

2x in one week
 

I had to call 2 team technicals for wrong numbers in the book last week. Yuk!

1) B8 - The visiting score keeper simply writes in the wrong number.

2) GV - The visiting score keeper asks each player for their number. The player gets it wrong.

OK, No more of this please! :rolleyes:

I'm a little confused by both of those. Why do we care what the visitor's book has?

We don't, of course. But in checking out the situations, the orginal errors were made in the visitors' books. They weren't errors made by the home score keeper copying incorrectly or transposing a number.

Pardon my misleading verbiage.

You completely missed the point.
The fact that a team member who enters the game isn't properly on the team roster must be discovered before it can be penalized. The time of that discovery isn't up to the officials. It is solely upon the scorer. If the scorer does his job correctly, this should be caught when the team member reports as a substitute. If the scorer screws up and the kid goes into the game and then leaves prior to the infraction being detected that isn't the fault of either the game officials or the opposing team.
The problem with the NFHS Case Play ruling is that it makes it too easy for the home scorer to cheat when the infraction is by the home team. All that he has to do is wait until the kid is out of the game to inform the officials and there is no penalty. That's wrong!

As for the rest of your post, who is going to add a name to the book and fail to properly assess a T at that time? Not going to happen.
The only way that I'm ok with no penalty is if the coach withdraws the kid after he reports and is informed that he isn't on the roster. There used to be a description of that in the NFHS Simplified & Illustrated book. No penalty if he doesn't play.

Once he plays, the ruling must be consistent and not depend upon whether he fouls, scores, or gets a rebound. If he enters with 10 seconds remaining in the 2nd qtr and scores a basket as time expires in the half, what are you going to do--where do the points get recorded? Absolutely silly and wrong ruling by the NFHS author.

And when it happens to favor the team associated with the scorer it raises an integrity issue.
I'm charging a T in all cases in which I know that the team member participated and was not properly listed on the team roster. That's how it was when I started officiating. Just because some fool working for the NFHS got it wrong a few years ago doesn't mean that I need to blindly follow down the same path.

Maybe not. I am trying to reconcile your point with the case book plays (3.3.2 and 10.1.2), the rule and the reality of how this occurs.

I have never seen a coach knowingly leave off a player and then request his name be added. I have seen a coach (or his manager) make a mistake and not include a player (usually a JV player who is going to play for the varsity). When the player is sent to the table, the coach "assumes" he is listed on that day's roster.

As for the scorer deliberately "cheating," you presume the scorer knows the player will not score and will not commit a foul. If the scorer is able to foretell the future, I want to take that scorer to Vegas with me and have him tell me the next number on the roulette wheel. Because as soon as the player does either, he MUST be added to the book and that is when the technical foul is assessed.

And please don't cite some long ago source to back your point. Today's officials have only the current rule book and case book to guide them. As much as you personally disapprove of this interpretation, it has the force of "law" around here: and we are instructed not to set aside any rule (or published interpretation) because we don't like it or think it is wrong.

While the scorer has a duty to inform the officials of this transgression, there is no specific penalty if he does not. Officials have many "duties" by rule, but there is (usually) no penalty if we make a mistake. If we give the ball to the wrong team for a throw-in, there is nothing that can be done once the throw-in ends. The interpretation doesn't say there is no penalty; it says the penalty can only be imposed when the name is added to the book, and that can happen only when the player is in the game or when he next reports (and, maybe, the scorer will pay more attention this time.)

The rule forbids "a team" from adding a name to the roster after the 10-minute mark. There is no authority for an official to add a name. That is how I read the interpretation: since the team did not add the name when the sub reported in the first half, there is no authority for the official to do so on behalf of the team. If the rule were as you described, then the penalty section needs to read the same as for the excessive time out: "Penalized when discovered." It doesn't say that....and the rules' makers (in my judgment) are trying to make that distinction.

There is another thread ongoing about the quality of table personnel. This "problem" is part of that thread. I had two problems along these lines in the last couple of seasons: one involving the wrong starter and one involving a JV player that a coach left off the varsity list when she submitted the roster. Both times the scorer was going to make the change without telling the officials. Both times I was at the table and would not allow it without penalty. The scorers had no idea they were doing anything wrong.

So, rather than look at this as a "cheating" scorer, I see it as one of the many realities of high school competition, with a wide range of "qualified" table personnel and a rules set that is often ambiguous (and sometimes contradictory) in many instances.