Iowa State/Kansas (Clip Added)
 

Can anyone post a block call made by John Higgins at approx. 7:43 left in the second half. I only saw it once and thought it should go the other way. Appreciate it.

I checked the Twitter feed @JohnHigginsHair and didn't see the play mentioned.

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The defender had LGP at first. However, once the dribbler tried going around him the defender slid sideways and towards the dribbler, instead of sliding sideways and lateral with the dribbler.

I could see a charging call if the dribbler did something to initiate contact, such as putting a shoulder down or leaning into the defender. Or even if he didn't try to go around the defender at all. But neither thing happened.

The dribbler clearly tried to go around the defender, and the defender did not legally move into his path... initiating contact.

He is backing up, how is that going forward?

This should have been a PC foul at the very least.

Peace

I've got a PC due to B having LGP and his movement to the side was legal.

The defender was never out of the dribbler's path. That is a PC.

He certainly didn't move laterally with the dribbler. The defender was set around the middle of the foul line, the dribbler then tried going around him at the elbow, and the defender slid over into the path.

There was a time when too many blocks were called, making things unfair for the defense. I'm now seeing too many charges called, making things unfair for the offense. The dribbler is not trying to "run over" the defense on the way to the basket, he's simply trying to get around the defender.

I've been asked, and I've seen it asked of others... what did the dribbler do wrong?

Caused contact to the body of a defender who had and was maintaining Legal Guarding Position

I understand I'm in the minority, but this is how I see it...

The player moving with the ball (the dribbler) changed direction to avoid contact once the defender gained LGP in the middle of the free throw line. Then, after the dribbler started to go around the defender (at the elbow), the defender's movement was not "lateral" or "oblique". Instead, the movement was directly sideways into the path already started into by the dribbler.

The defender has the right to move into his path when he has gained LGP. He cannot come forward towards the ball handler.

You really need to get back in that book if what you said was illegal on the behalf of the defender. Sorry, you really need to get into that book and read the definitions just using your own words.

The defender did nothing wrong based on the replay.

Peace

I think you misunderstand how the concept of obliquely / laterally / forward are applied here.

What you described is the definition of lateral.

I laid out my reasons in my last post. Like I said, I understand that I'm in the minority, and may very-well be wrong. But I just don't see it.

Is it me, or is the rule book skewed towards defense? It's like the NFHS is trying to make up for the fact that for years good defense was penalized by officials.

By the way, and this isn't for JRut... let's cut the hyperbole about this and other calls here being the "easiest call in the World" (or something like that). If they were that easy they wouldn't be posted here for discussion in the first place. I actually find comments like that to be insulting.

Exactly, he retreated while moving sideways. Easy PC IMO.

Can you please explain what you think is different about the 2 bolded phrases?

"Lateral" movement (in terms of the rule) is related to the movement of the dribbler. The rule book doesn't stop at "the guard may move laterally or obliquely", but continues by saying "...to maintain position".

In this case, the defender did not "maintain position", as his movement sideways caused him to be closer to the dribbler than he originally was when he gained LGP.

So again... what did the dribbler do wrong? He tried going around the defender after the defender had gained LGP, as the book states he must do.

Why do you believe this? For the most part, the rule book places the onus on the defense to get legal and to maintain that legality.

And at the most, no? Or did you have something else here too?

Because they go into great detail on what legal guarding is, but say little to nothing in regards to legally trying to avoid a charging call. It's like once a defender has LGP, they can do no wrong, and therefore any contact is the fault of the offense.

So basically you are looking at this as the defender moved sideways, the dribbler was getting closer to the defender, so therefore the defender did something wrong by not maintaining the same distance between himself and the dribbler?

Am I reading your comments correctly?

If so, you are really wrong...if not, then your attempts to explain your thinking are not coming through very clearly.

The player with the ball closed the distance. The defender does NOT have to give ground and keep the distance the same during the entire play. He established LGP and moved laterally -- the player with the ball moved into the defender.

I guess you could make a case for a no-call, but I do not think you should call a foul on the defender in this case.

Peace

So what if he is closer to the dribbler than he was when he obtained LGP. The dribbler caused them to be closer by moving forwards. The defender moved lateral/sideways and maintained his LGP, he did not move forward or towards the dribbler. Therefore, the onus is on the offensive player to avoid contact. You are not just in the minority on this point, you are the single official incapable of understanding this concept.

That's where the "gets head and shoulders past the defense" come in.

if the defense is so late to move that even a lateral move causes contact on the offense's side, then it's a block. But even if the move makes the distance shorter, if the defense gets there first, it's a charge.

The dribbler has to stop or change direction...he needs to change direction in a manner in which the defender will lose LGP. The rule book doesn't go into much detail (besides mentioning greater responsibility for contact shifting to the defender if the dribbler gets head and shoulders past the defender) because how much more detail do you need?

What he did wrong is run over a defender who was in LGP. The book doesn't say he has to try to avoid contact with the defender that has LGP, it says he must avoid contact with the defender that has LGP or he is responsible for the resulting contact.

Next you will tell us a foul should not be called on a defensive player that hits a shooter on the arm if said defender was trying to avoid hitting the offensive player on the arm.

This is not true. In the first place LGP can be lost just as quickly as it was established, depending on the movement of both players. Also, a player may have LGP then commit a foul by moving forward into the dribbler or by extending an arm and making contact. And of course the foul can still be on the offense without the defender ever having LGP at all.

The defensive player moved laterally (and actually back one step), the offensive player moved towards him.

It's one thing to disagree on judgment. It's quite another to tell a bunch of veteran officials that they don't know what the definition of maintaining a LGP is.

If you want to be Don Quixote', fine. But Don Quixotes don't fare very well in camps or with supervisors.

Possibly the first Don Quixote reference on this forum. Nice:D

I believe one of our esteemed moderators has an avatar for that.

I guess I'm wrong. The guy in the video that made the "bad" call could very well have been me. It bothers me that I don't see things like everybody else here, as many of you are well-respected, but I'm not going to lie just to fit in.

With more experience perhaps I'll see this play, and others like it, differently.

Everyone gets calls wrong on the court, even the big dawgs. But I can pretty much gaurantee you that when Higgins watches the video of this game, he will mark himself down for this play.

Agreed

Ugh!

I was just about to step into the shower to get ready for a JV boys game, when it dawned on me what I was getting wrong in my interpretation.

The sideways movement by the defender didn't directly cause the contact. Sure, his sideways movement caused him to be closer to the dribbler than when he initially gained LGP, but getting closer to the dribbler is not grounds for being penalized. Causing contact is grounds for being penalized. The defender didn't do that.

The dribbler still has to avoid contact after the sideways movement... and he didn't. Thus a PC foul.

Sorry to cause you all headaches.

Tilting with windmills. Definitely charging . . . er player control.

When I said that, I prefaced it with "From the angle in the video". In real time, I don't think that is necessarily an easy call. I can see plenty of good officials calling a block there. But I think when watching the video, most of those officials would wish they had gone PC.

Does anyone else think that the C could have been late picking up the defender? The drive starts in T's area.....and ends in T's area. Why doesn't T have a whistle??

Some of us around here are not as experienced, and therefore do not find these calls (even when slowed down on video) to be so easy. I just ask that you and others avoid making those that have questions feel stupid for not believing things to be as simple.

An evaluator, sitting in the stands, will often have a view similar to that of the camera. What we see from that view, and then, with the advantage of re-play, slo-mo, stop-frame, our perception can be very different from that of the calling official. Not only this thread, but several current and recent threads demonstrate the inequities involved.

That was my thought - sort of - at first also...looks more like he is late picking up the defender. He seems to be watching the ball handler the entire time, and only sees the defender right before the contact.

And to BryanV21...that's what makes this forum so good. We are all wrong at one time or another on here...even the ones who are the biggest jerks to people who question them or disagree with them. Ignore them...find a handful of posters whose opinions and delivery you can respect and bounce your thoughts off of those people.

Maybe he trusted the T. Maybe he was processing the situation and the C beat him to it. Who really knows unless you talk to the officials why they did or did not do something. All we are going to do is speculate and that could be totally wrong based on the officials in the video.

Peace

You cannot "legally" avoid a charging call. It either is a PC or it isn't. The defender either HAD and maintained LGP or he didn't. The rules states what it takes for all these to apply.

The defender established LGP and maintained it when the contact occurred.

That crash is right in front of the C, I would take that call also if I were the C.

Tally another vote for PC. I like watching Higgins probably more than any other NCAA official, but he missed this one. It happens.

If you're a Twitter guy, follow @JohnHigginsHair -- it's pretty funny.

Just followed it. That is pretty funny.

Early favorite:

For the record, I'm not one of these "experienced" officials that you talk about. I'm not trying to make anyone feel stupid.

Many people do not have the make up or the ability to take on direct criticism.
Peace

I almost forgot you're new here. :)

Who are you calling esteemed?

A bit of advice, take that stuff in stride.

edit: Feel free to contact a moderator if you think we've missed a personal "attack."

Here is a way you can think about this to perhaps more clearly picture what lateral movement really is....

Put an imaginary wall directly between the defender and the dribbler based on their positions....not the direction the dribbler is moving and without regard to the direction either player is facing. That wall is constantly shifting as the player's move.

As long as the defender is not moving into/through that wall at the time of contact, they are moving laterally or obliquely away and can't commit a block (assuming they had obtained LGP).

If the dribbler is quick enough to get to the side of the defender, the wall will be to the defender's side and a sideways movement by the defender relative to the former positions would now be into that wall and into the dribbler....thus a block. If the defender moves quick enough such that the dribbler is the one coming through the wall, then it is a PC.

I didn't feel attacked, as I wasn't going to assume the intentions of those that wrote it. I was just pointing out how that could be taken.

I don't pay all that much attention to the avatars or the quotes and titles people use here other than what they say in their actual posts.