Wwyd
 

Is this not a game management issue?
If so, "WWYD" wouldn't seem to apply to me as an official beyond what's expressed in 2-8-1 NOTE.
Sound right?

I'm addressing it with game mgmt. If it happens again, I'm strongly suggesting that someone needs to leave the premises.

In the case, it appears the primary offender was escorted out immediately.

Agreed. I'm not putting up with this. It stops immediately, or the entire section may be removed.

This.

"comical but offensive chant"...wow.:confused:

I am on board with this method 100%. If it doesn't stop immediately-clear out ALL involved with the chant, not just the leader.

I wouldn't have had any idea what it meant. I don't like it when the cheerleaders yell "Miss it" myself, but apparently that is acceptable.

Not even remotely the same thing.

I realize that. But I'm saying I don't even like this lesser version, so yes I agree that any kind of racial angle, no matter how obscure, is unacceptable. I would not have recognized this as such.

Fair enough. I'll be honest, it took me a few seconds to make the connection when a local official posted it to our FB page. It's ignorant and racist, though. Kids being too clever by half.

Not around here. Cheerleaders are official reps of their respective schools.

That said.... THAT was the top story in Rochester, NY?!

In addition, I'm whacking the crowd for this. Some behavior is too extreme to go without penalty. Racism falls in that category.

Same feeling I had a few years back when I observed a game and the losing student section chanted, "You're still white trash." Sadly, the officials that day didn't do anything.

But whacking the crowd doesn't penalize the crowd, it penalizes the team. I really don't see why this one is in the books, but it does have the disclaimer.

Care should be used not to unfairly penalize the players for the actions of others............ or something like that. Where is that?

IMO, cheerleaders are as much a part of the game as the players themselves, and should therefore be respectful. If I heard them yelling "miss it", or whatever, I'd have a chat with the head coach of the school, and tell him/her to get with the cheerleading coach and cut it out.

As for the crowd, they can yelling "miss it" all they want, but when the get racial like in the OP then I'm going to step in and make sure it stops immediately. I wouldn't penalize the team by giving them a tech, though. That doesn't seem right to me.

I'm not smart enough to make the connection from slurpee to owning a 7-11. I don't think I would have noticed. Am I the only one?

Whack the crowd?

Sorry, no. I'm not a pioneer.

One needs to decide what one stands for in life. This is HS sports in which we open every game by addressing sporting behavior with the coaches and captains.

I really wouldn't feel one bit bad about penalizing a school's team for a racist chant from it's student section. The only thing which would send a stronger message would be to stop and forfeit the contest. That is what is happening in European soccer matches when the crowd gets racial with the players.

Sports is a part of life with one of several purposes being to teach people about how to interact with others. Think about the reason behind having the modern Olympic Games. I have decided to put the principles of character and civil behavior above the competitive aspects of a sporting contest. In the grand scheme, the game and any penalties suffered within it are secondary to the life lessons taken from it.

If your state or your association makes this decision, fine.

If you're making this decision on your own, you're a loose cannon.

Yeah, this is the message I want to send, all right. You shall be punished for the actions of others over whom you have no control.

I'm on the opposite side. Cheerleaders are just fans that are permitted to stand near the court for some reason. Aside from trying not to run into them, I really don't pay any attention to them.

I wouldn't bother with a T either. Just clear that part of the gym.

Exactly my opinion...cheerleaders are fans with a special access pass to be near/on the court at certain times.

And no way I'm giving a T here...you've already punished the offenders enough by embarrassing said individuals as they take the "walk of shame." Plus they don't get to see the rest of the game (I would venture a guess that they are there because they want to see the game). Giving a T here is making a pioneer call.

You are in good company Nevada: Martin Luther, Benjamin Franklin, Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, Rosa Parks, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

I would address this with GM and a Special Report to the state. I cannot see myself doing much more than that if I happened to pick up on the chant and the context. Usually in my experience if this is a student section, there are adults already on top of things like this before we even have to deal with this at all.

Peace

Did you really compare this situation to anything those people were directly involved in? Seriously?

Peace

Umm....what?! :confused:

It's a little known fact that Thomas Jefferson was quick on the trigger with the technical fouls and he often called the second one, too.

So the consensus seems to be that we would NOT assess a T here for racial chants.

We will however assess a T should a fan (or fans) run on the court?

What's the lesson?

Don't run onto the court.

In the Minority?
 

Based on what I'm seeing here I think I might be in the minority here but I would not do a thing about a chant coming out of the student section or anywhere in the crowd. Unless something directly affects someones safety, I do not address fans. The school and students are embarassing themselves and the game administration needs to put a stop to it (as they usually do very quickly).

The chant is not overt or over the top. The chant might not even make most of us even notice the context or why that was being said. And for all most of us would know, that could be a reference to something else. This is not like other typical words or references that have history or greater context. So to give a T for something that could have many meanings or references, I do not think a T in itself is appropriate. And the lesson is the way the schools handle it with their student body, not who we allow to shoot FTs in a game no one will remember after the game is over.

Peace

We had a kid addressing an opponent with, "How does it feel being the only white kid on the team?" during the pregame layup line.

I didn't make a scene, but I didn't ignore it either.

One interferes with the game. One doesn't. Not a hard lesson to figure out.

And as for the "taking a stand" comments made earlier...good grief. Punishing the Coach/Team for the actions of a group of fans that the Coach has no immediate control over does not send a message, take a stand, make a point...you get the idea.

Having game mgt. remove the people doing the chant, and the school carry out further discipline sends a message to the ones actually involved in the chant...and according to the article, that is what has been done.

There it is.

I appreciate and admire those that take a stand, but be careful what motivates you. A technical foul is supposed to control behavior on the floor, not in the stands. If someone comes onto the floor, then fine, but if you want to take a stand against racism, file a report, and let the schools deal with this.

I understand Rut's contention that the words weren't "over the top," but what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If we're going to take a stand against racism for some, we have to do it for all. I'll stop here before I go on a Mister Señor Love Daddy rant.

Not the only One
 

You are not the only one. Someone would have had to explain this to me.

I think one can take this stand without being the guy who called a T on the crowd for something the game management is taking care of (assuming they take care of this). I will suspend the game, telling the site management that we will resume once the perps are escorted out, before I call the T.

I don't know if you’re in the minority or not. I bet the kid shooting the FT's knew what it meant. I also bet his teammates did as well. Maybe if you didn’t do anything, it would just go away. Another possibility is later in the game someone uses that as motivation for an unsporting foul, or worse. We are guilty by association as some point in our lives (home team included). By doing nothing it gives the perception your condoning it. Addressing it with the powers that be quickly and discretely is completely reasonable (IMO the right thing to do). Anything above this is a fishing expedition, and not the forum I would choose to teach tolerance. If all three of you have no idea what the reference means you must have never seen a Simpson’s episode, or live in a vacuum.

On the Simpsons, it's called a Squishee.

Noun[edit]


No. I compared being called a loose cannon early in a 'cause', which is an attempt to shout down/discourage Nevada's point, to the same negative reactions these persons faced for their 'causes'. 'Causes' that would have been forgotten had they not stuck to it.

Exactly, if they called it what it was there would be consequences (mostly monetarily).

I do not think anyone is trying to start a war or assasinate someone on this board for a position. Fine if he wants to T up the crowd, but I do not think they are going to change laws because he is making that attempt or a governor is going to stand in between him if he does so. I think that is a little different, but maybe you will not see that point.

Peace

I agree.

The comparison is ridiculous, and I think Nevada would agree.

Holy.

Crap. :eek:

MLK, Jr. was assassinated.

Luther was excommunicated.

Henry was executed.

Parks was arrested.

Nevada had someone disagree with him on an internet forum.

Get real.

No one is trying to shout Nevada down.
1. It's not possible.
2. It's not necessary.

We are, however, expressing our disagreement with him. The fact that the disagreement is nearly universal does not mean we're trying to silence him.

Well, it is possible that 3 of the above 4 things have happened to Nevada! :eek:

But I'm not going to start any rumors. :)

What would the reaction be if the student section were chanting the N word?

Same. I'd get game management. I wouldn't whack the team for the behavior of some students in the bleachers.

Agree 100%.

Tell GM that someone's got to go...or the whole section is going.

Agreed. The only difference is it wouldn't take me a few seconds to get the reference.

We all know the emotion that word brings into a room. The havec that would ensue following it would be legendary. If you think you can sneak in two free throws in between the complete a$$ beatings that are happening all over the gym; you are good!

I think the person that said that would have bigger problems than whether we gave them a T or not.

Again, not in the same ballpark as the OP situation in any way.

Peace

It's not even the right comparison, if you want to try to make such a thing.

I know earlier I said I would ignore any fan chant and allow game managment to hear it and handle it on their own but I guess I didn't consider the extreme. That being said, I cannot imagine a scenario where the game managment isn't all over something like this before I even can turn to look at them. Still wouldn't T tho, just get the offender out, entire section if needed.

Just to throw another angle out there, what if a chant was directed towards you as the official? Would you acknowledge (get game managment, or T if you feel that route is appropriate) in that situation. This discussion reminded me of a state playoff game I played in when I was in HS, opponents student section chanted "A rope, a tree, hang the referee!" for a solid 20-30 secs.

We said that all the time in high school. I'd probably laugh. Actually, the chant is, "A rope. A tree. All we need is a referee."

Haha me as well, that is the only time I ever heard that in my life though. I went to high school outside of Philadelphia and this game was somewhere in Central PA....I remember on the way home us all saying "these country kids are crazy!!!"

I do nothing. I have on rare occasion acknowledged a few clever one's at a time-out. When cell phones became more popular I heard one kid say "Hey Ref, I found your cell phone and it has 3 missed calls!" I looked at him and said, "That's was a good one";)

Warming Up The Car ...
 

"Where's your seeing eye dog?"

The point I was trying to make is when is enough enough? and Do you really consider racism to be something that is judged on a level of mild to severe and only what you would consider racist?

To me its like and OOB call, either their foot is on the line or it isn't. There is no grey.

I think maybe the point is that most of us would still not call a T on the crowd, even if the OP was carried to a greater extreme, which the later example clearly is.

When I played in HS we had a player who got drunk during school, and got caught. He got suspended for 3 days and missed a game. His first game back we are playing on the road at a rival. First time he goes to the line (and all other times thereafter) the crowd chanted "Alcoholic"

Even as his teammate, I thought it was clever and funny. We ended up winning.

Clever? Not really. Funny? Sure.

I am going to have to disagree with this on some level. There are many things that people say that are not well known. Or might be taken in a different way. This reference in the OP might have taken me a couple of minutes to pick up on the issue. A word like "nigger" would not. There is a lot of racial language that is offensive if you change the region of the country or region of a state, conference or sometimes an incident that would make the issues different. No one is saying we should just ignore a situation, but one word might not inflame others and one word would that I referenced. Heck if someone used that one word toward African-Americans, you might have fans outside of the court confronting other fans or students. That is all I am saying. And I do not feel a T is always the best way to handle these situations. If an administration knows of things, they might take action before we even know what happened.

To give you a better example is there was a coach in my area that put on the wall of a locker room of his team saying, "Hard work will set you free." Well I would not have picked up on that reference, but apparently during the Holocast, that term was used in Germany at a concentration camp by the German Government. Well the coach was suspended for a couple of games for that stunt and when I was told as an African-American of this, I had no idea what was done wrong. It had to be explained to me the context of these words or how this would be seen as offensive. Well because the school district this took place had a very high Jewish population, they took big offense to those words and took action. And I was not offended, but understood after hearing the story. The OP would have probably caught me off guard in a similar way as it is not common that that is used towards someone of that background by saying something about a slurpee.

Peace

I had something happen a few weeks ago in a GV game. The road team had a number of Asian players. While the road team was handing the home team an a**-whipping, some of the students started making comments towards the visitors in mock Asian accents. My partner heard it, stopped the game and told GM. GM told the school safety officers what was going on and they cleared ALL of the home students out of the gym. The only spectators were fans of the road team.

Interestingly, some of the students involved were apparently members of the home school's BV team.

Nevada,

A lot of people over time have been discouraged from acting or speaking-up for good and just causes. I encourage you to continue.

I don't even know what to make of this post...much like you putting Nevadaref in the same company as historically significant people.

+1,000,000

I will say what was said before, this is a flat out lie. ;)

Peace

I have no clue what you're talking about.

I speak up by getting the game manager and having that person/people removed.

Rich, you said -
"If your state or your association makes this decision, fine.

If you're making this decision on your own, you're a loose cannon."

Perhaps I mis-understood you. I will edit your post slightly below.

"If one's state or association makes this decision, fine.

If one makes this decision on their own, they're a loose cannon."

The other way, it sounded like you were speaking directly to Nevada. And I simply meant, don't be discouraged, stick to it. After all, calling someone a loose cannon is certainly discouraging them from continuing.

And if he was, so that freak what? That is not shutting him down or telling him he cannot do what he wants. But in Rich's area giving a T for something that was said in the OP is often frowned upon. Why? Because you are penalizing the team for actions that might not even be directly associated with the team. For all you know those chants might have not been from the fans of that specific team. That is why you tell GM and let them handle the situation in many cases. And even the interpretations cautions us against giving Ts to crowds for that very reason. In my area it is also frowned upon to give a T to the crowd. Give the GM a chance to deal with it and even have people removed or sections if need be. And if the people in Nevada's area have no problem with giving Ts to the crowd, good for them.

Peace

One problem: I was speaking directly to him. He's the only one I know on the forum who thinks whacking fans/parents is actually part of his job. If anyone here CAN discourage him from doing this (which I doubt), then GOOD.

He was speaking directly to Nevada... but he was not discouraging him from speaking here... he was discouraging him (and hopefully anyone else) from taking the action Nevada was advocating (issuing a Technical Foul to a fan).

Come on... advocating sticking to your guns and issuing a T to fans is being equated by some to the actions taken by MLK, founding fathers, etc. That's not just ridiculous, it's offensive.

The point is, I would discourage someone from making this call absent explicit instructions to do so from those who control your schedule. Nevadaref is sufficiently established in his locale, I don't think he's too concerned. Further, this is a once-in-a-career call at most, so how you handle this isn't nearly as important as the fact that you handled it.

I will say,though, the odds of getting in trouble for calling the T are far greater than the odds of getting into trouble for just having them removed.

I was working a HS boys playoff game about 7-8 years ago when a ball ended up in the stands. A student took the ball and threw it into the back of one of the visiting players.

My partner called a technical foul on the crowd. It was as good of a call as the one he made on a certain YouTube video that seems to get posted every other week.

Back in the day we used to chant 1,2,3,4 get the cattle off the floor when opposing team's cheerleaders went to mid court.... complete with mooing sounds at the end...

Oh good God.

That made me burst out laughing right in the middle of my students taking their History test...now they all want to know what is so funny!

Thanks a lot.:mad:

Do you have TAs to proctor the exams while you read officiating forums? ;)

It's 7th grade...not very sophisticated when it comes to cheating.

Really? No I haven't watched a Simpson's episode. Last cartoon I watched was Bugs Bunny. Where did that ignore button go...

Sounds like future Duke students!

Sounds like future ____fill in the blank________ students!

Top right hand coner of your monitor....;)