Block/Charge thoughts (video)
 

As I watched this play two questions came to mind (I know, he's thinking again)...

1. Did the defender do anything wrong?
2. Do we default to "block" when we see a ball handler/dribbler/airborne shooter make contact that isn't directly on the defender's torso?


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No and no.

Ouch. Defender did everything correctly and still gets penalized.

2. Do we? yes. Should we? No -- I think this was one of the major points made last season on B/C plays.

3. How come Lead didn't have first crack?

I have a PC on this play. Last season on the NCAA-M's side, it was emphasized that contact does not have to be directly to the torso.

Looks like the dribbler is coming from the C's side of the court, and seeing as how it's the primary defender who's involved in the block/charge, then it would be the C's call. I mean, if the dribbler got around the primary defender and a secondary defender was involved in the block/charge, then the L should make the call.

Not that the L can't make a call, but I see no problem with the L deferring to the C here.

Depends on the definition of "secondary defender". On the Men's side, all outnumbered defensive players on a fast break are secondary defenders. I don't know how NCAA-W handle it.

That's why I'm asking #3.

The L seems to still be getting to the end line. Could he feel he doesn't have a good enough look?

We use the same definition. A double whistle would have been ideal here, but as the drive is from Cs primary it's his call.

This is a PC. At one of my camps last year the clinicians covered #2 and talked about how a lot of officials think (wrongly) that contact for a PC has to be center torso. They showed a bunch of clips similar to this one and the general consensus was practically all of them should have been PC but were called blocks. I also agree a double whistle would have been good here but it is C's primary.

For me from the video the L is still getting in position, and C looks to have the best look anyway. But I think he missed it as well.

If you consider this a secondary defender, than in NCAA-M, the L gets first crack.

I don't think this is an odd numbered fast break situation. Looks like 2 on 2 to me. Therefore, I am not sure I would classify the defender as a secondary defender. I think the L did a poor job of getting back to the end line and is out of position/straight lined and didn't have a good look. It should be a PC foul.

+1

Just doesn't look like he busted his hump to get there, does it?

Assuming BNR's quote is correct, then the NCAAW is different.

Art. 2. In a fast-break situation, any defensive player(s) initially shall be a
secondary defender.

Either way, though, I think this is primarily for the RA rule and not necessarily for the "whose call is it?" discussion.

Textbook PC.

1. No.
2. I definitely don't.

You are correct, this definition is used to decide PC/block plays in regards to the RA on fast breaks. However, the favored philosophy on the men's side is that L is primary on all such plays in the paint, going to the basket involving secondary defenders regardless as to where the play originated or whether or not the RA is involved.

The men's version of the rule:


Art. 4. In an outnumbering fast-break situation, any defensive player(s) initially
shall be a secondary defender.

From the camera's angle, at full speed, the contact appears to be on the torso, of the defender. At slow motion, the contact appears to be on the lower portion of the defender's body, and the head and shoulders of the ballhandler appear to be past the front of the defender's torso.
The angle from the calling official's position could easily coincide with that statement, and the block call could be justified.
There also seems to be an apreciable amount of embellishment of the result of the contact, by the defender, i.e. an attempted "flop".

so what?

Just because there's "greater responsibility" on the defense doesn't mean it can't (or shouldn't) be a charge. The defense still didn't move.

No way that is anything but a CHARGE!!!!The defender did everything to gain LGP and stopped after getting LGP.

Peace

You mean charge, right?

Um .... say what? :)

Head and shoulders is a rule of thumb, it's not a hard/fast rule to define a block. It works well when both players are moving, but even then isn't definitive.

I'm sure that is what he meant since the rest of his post is consistent with him ruling it a charge......and I agree with that.

1. No.
2. Some do. I hear that crap at least twice a season at the HS level in meetings or in post-game discussions about plays.
3. This should not be a double whistle. Drive starts from the C's PCA. Defender is in the C's PCA. The contact is in the C's PCA. (--And well outside the RA, which is irrelevant regarding who should have the primary whistle on it, anyway.) The L having a quick (read - at the same time as the C, creating a true double whistle, instead of a cadence whistle) is inappropriate here. C's call, all the way. (L only gets if C doesn't make the call for some reason - and then, with a cadence or almost-late whistle.) - I'm speaking in NCAA-W mechanics terms and philosophy here, but I would easily argue that what I've just typed completely applies to NFHS, too, for this play.

Hawk....thanks on #3. For all you NCAAM officials out there this is the C's call all the way on the NCAAW's side. Most supervisors I've spoken with at camps wouldn't want a double whistle here.

I understand that in some situations there are vastly different philosophies between the NCAA-M and NCAA-W but I don't see how a double whistle on a transition play in the paint is a problem. Sure a cadence whistle would probably be better, but I just don't understand the mentality to avoid double whistles.

Can't tell from the camera angle but maybe the defender kicked out a knee or hip as the shooter tried to step by. It does look to me like the shooter tried to avoid contact but I can't tell if she was successful. I don't think its close enough to go with a block if that's not what happened so I would have a PC foul if I didn't see the leg or hip bump from the defender.

Always interesting how where you see a play from can change what you think it should be called. Wish coaches and fans would remember that.

NCAAW frowns on double whistles in many instances. This would be one of them because the play clearly started and ended in the C's primary. If the C doesn't do anything then the L can blow but those are our marching orders.

From the video angle, it appears the offensive player's head and shoulders get past the torso of the defender.

According to NFHS rules, that helps us determine the play was a block.

??

I've heard just the opposite recently.

I'm going off what I heard at camps last summer. Maybe things are changing and word is spreading. Slowly :confused:

Jet,

A right hand person to the Women's SEC supervisor runs a high school camp(s) down here and he wore us out this past summer for not putting multiple whistles on these type plays. It wasn't a suggestion, either. We have always taught to give it up to the primary and come late if he/she didn't have a whistle. Not the philosophy anymore......

Good to know. Thanks.

It's not determinative.

As have I.

But...in the OP play, I don't think the L should have a whistle on this play because he was so late getting down the floor. If he had gotten to the endline sooner, been set up and waiting for the play, then a double on this play would be ok, imo.

I wasn't doubting that this is what you have been taught, I just don't understand why the people teaching you that seem to be so adamant about not having double whistles.

I concur, the L was not in position to have a good look and shouldn't have had a whistle in this play.