Duke vs Miami double foul vid request (Clip Added)
 

1st quarter 7:16
One official called block on a duke player other official called charge on Miami player. 0nly 2 officials huddled. Ruled double foul. Miami gets throw- in on end line.

oh no. A blarge.

Blow and hold!!! Blow and hold!!!....lol

A blarge is never fun, and although it sometimes makes no difference whether or not is discussed in the pregame-as far as I am concerned personally I will always discuss this in pregame and will always do my best to avoid such situations by waiting that second longer to make sure no blarge happens before I give a preliminary!

It happened to me a few years back, and I don't ever want it to happen again!

You can browse to the play here: ESPN3 -- Miami v. Duke

Lead (Jamie Luckie) had a charge and C (Tony Greene) had a block. Looks like any easy block as the defender lost LGP when moving forward.

Best Dickie V comment in response to the realization they are calling a double foul: "They are just making everyone happy."

That's our goal in administering the rules, just make sure everyone is happy...:)

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I don't see an immediate signal from C, so why bother with the huddle and double foul? Plus isn't that L's call all the way?

I don't have a problem with the PC here. Tough call with the offense coming in hot like that.

I think he banged his hips before he came into view.

It's a block - the C is correct. Why penalize the offense for "coming in hot?"

The center most definitely signaled a blocking foul right away.

Agree.

Not sure how the L saw this as PC. Doesn't really even look that close. Different angles, I guess.

I don't mind C having a whistle but I think he has to give L first crack. That being said I think the C got the call right.

From the sideline view looks like a charge, but looking at the end line view I have a block.

I'm not penalizing him for it, I'm just saying it makes the call tougher because it makes any small forward movement by the defense harder to detect.

Agree.

Transition. I have no problem in transition with the C getting that.

I agree that the L should get first crack at this...especially since this is a defender trying to slide laterally into position to take the charge. The lead is in the best position to see that side to side movement. The C can have a whistle on this but he needs to hold any preliminary signal and/or have a later (cadence) whistle IMO.

As is, the C had the right call IMO.

You know, I want to take back what I said about transition -- the L was in perfect position to take this play and, well, missed it.

Related thought: I've always found it odd that the L making the wrong call is preferable to the blarge -- at least ONE of them got it right. :D

I actually think the C had the best view. The defender was slipping forward into the dribbler. The C could easily see the defender moving forward....which is where the block would be.

The L should have been able to see that but it would have been much more difficult. The L would have seen lateral movement better, but not forward movement....and laterally, the defender looked like he got there to me.

That was significant movement and he caught the offensive with his left leg, which was outside the frame of a natural stance.

On another topic I noticed the start of this game was delayed for several minutes while the officials sorted out an issue. At the end after talking to several players, one person off the Miami bench I didn't recongnize and the head coach one player removed his all white arm compression sleeves and the game began. Another player was wearing orange an white sleeves. I don't know what the NCAA rule is buy I would guess it is the sleeves must match for all players?

I agree with tjones1 and APG here, in that L is in best position to call this (although it might not have been the right call on this play. It's debatable, at least). Additionally, this is one of many examples, in my opinion and watching experience (certainly not calling), of officials in the Men's game working a lot more loosely with PCA's than in the Women's game, and being way too quick to whistle on fouls in others' PCA's.

Yes, the all have to match. And they have to be a single solid color (black, white, beige, or any color contained in the jersey).

Orange and white sleeves stayed on and the solid white ones got taken off. You could tell when the official was talking to the Coach that the Coach thought what ever he was saying was rediculous.

They always think that, but it's not as if the rule is new.

There were a couple of Miami players with half white and half orange sleeves (#23 and #15 in the clips) and I thought there was at least one with all orange (the ESPN3 replay showed another player that was not in the game during the clip). At least to the best of my recollection.

Spelling counts! ;)

Yes, compression sleeves have to be the same for all players.

For this season, they can have 2 colors on one sleeve. Many schools had ordered multi-colored sleeves before the rule change so a 1 season waiver has been given.

Given this situation and the one in Texas with the undershirts, was there an NCAA memo issued recently instructing the officials to take care of this stuff? I have difficulty believing that the guys suddenly decided to start doing it on their own.
If there was a memo, it would be great if someone who has access could copy and post it.

I posted in another thread that I had one conference supervisor who sent out an email specifically to address undershirts.

There is a waiver this season concerning dual-colored arm sleeves, so adherence to the rule was addressed in that memo.

Block all day every day.

With that said, this should be a single whistle from the Lead and the Lead would have been wrong. No problem, we're all wrong sometimes.

If i'm the C, I'm only cracking if my Lead doesn't have a whistle at all.

Thanks BNR for the update on sleeves at the Div 1 level.

I'm going to disagree with the crowd ok this one.

Defender has legal guarding position and moves laterally to maintain that position - and contact comes on the torso.

Dribbler was never airborne so the requirement to be set prior to the upward motion doesn't exist.

This looks player control to me.

I have a PC foul as well. The defender does not move towards the defender, he moves laterally.

And IMO, this is in transition, I have no problem with both officials have a crack on this. The C just has to be aware that someone else could have a whistle on this play.

Peace

I disagree with your assessment of the call, but (like you) I have no problem with the whistle from the C. I'd have a hard time NOT having a whistle as the C in this situation.

The problem is that the C and L both go right to a preliminary signal without even considering the other could have a whistle. The L doesn't even go up with a fist.

We can get away with that most of the time, but not all of the time.

I don't see what you guys see at all. I see the defender moving toward the offensive player the whole time, even right up until contact occurs. I hope we are watching the same video.

I also have the defender moving forward and contact from his left leg.

I do not have the defender moving forward, and I can't tell whether the contact is on the leg (block) or torso (charge).

Just doing my part to be sure we have all the possibilities covered.

At least we all agree that a "no-call" is not a valid choice.

I didn't really want to be the first one to say it (Thanks guys), but I thought PC as well. I think it would look like PC in real time.

That is why it is called judgment. I do not go looking for reasons to call fouls on the defender. He moves laterally IMO. The side view shows this the best. The end line view was not the best. And one of the reasons I feel the Lead should not be the "default" person to make these calls.

Peace

I do. It's called "refereeing the defense".

I know what it is called and I do not see the defender do anything but move laterally.

Peace

Ref the defense does not mean to look for reasons to call a foul on the defense.

Exactly!!!!

Peace

I'm guessing you really don't mean it this way.

So the side view which the C has shows the lateral movement better than Lead's view from the baseline? If that is true why did C have a block and Lead have a charge? In this situation it is obvious that any side-to-side movement is best seen from Lead, whereas C has the best look at the defender moving forward or backward.

And yeah, the refereeing the defense thing was a joke, lighten up guys :P

You need to ask the C personally why he called what he called. I just know when I see tape that official often call these plays incorrectly. Why is an individual thing. And often officials default to calling a block no matter what actually happens on the play.

If it is a block, what did the defender do wrong? I cannot think of anything that shows the defender was wrong in his movement.

Peace

Lost legal position and/or never had legal position to begin with.

Just like you (and others) and Jeff (and others) have different opinions seeing the same play, the C and L had different opinions. And, they only had once chance to watch it. It happens.

I've sat in meetings where official's supervisors have watched similar tapes and had diverging viewpoints.

As long as we know what to look for, we'll get more right. And, both sides have explained that they know what to look for.

There's no need to try to "win" this debate by convincing the other side. (directed generically)

He moved forward. Use the markings on the floor for reference.

When the 2 players were about 10' apart, the defender was about 3' above the top of the letters "ACC". When they were about 5' apart, one foot was near the "ACC", at the time of the collision, one foot was on the "ACC" and the other one still shuffling forward to try to match.

Block.

[QUOTE=maroonx;919658]1st quarter 7:16
One official called block on a duke player other official called charge on Miami player. 0nly 2 officials huddled. Ruled double foul. Miami gets throw- in on

According to the replay shown the L should be the primary and it would be his call. The C is secondary and after he blew his whistle he should have just waited. Of course NCAA might be different than how we call it for high school games. I wonder if the officials discussed this in their pre-game? That being said I see this as a block on the Duke defender but that's just hinsight--looking at the play in slow motion. If I was on the court as either the C or the L it's difficult to predict what I would have called in real time!!

Those 2 officials have worked dozens of times together, and both have officiated Final Fours. A brain fart on the part of the C for not holding his preliminary.

For close plays like this one, I have found that something will be obvious that would indicate that the play is a block.

I didn't see anything that is obviously a block. I did see something that tends to a PC, although it wasn't a clear-cut case for that either. In the end, I've got a PC.

I think the L gets the first crack at this one. I agree with bob that a no-call is wrong, so if I'm the C, I'm stepping in only if the L doesn't. I definitely don't see this as a "crew call" that was mentioned in another thread.